MOD's NOTE: Here's a related thread about Hermione being a parent (to Harry's child/ren, of course!) ~ gal-texter

Let me first explain that I am very sensitive when it come to good parenting and it infuriates me when people in the HP fandom freak out about things that they don't understand.

I left my parents home when I was 13 years old because they were not very good people. Saying this, when I see people who are good parents and only want the best for their children, I totally support them. Here is my two cents on a few parents and potential parents in HP fandom.

~~~~~~~

Molly & Arthur Weasley -

Oh, after reading the reviews of OotP, I was so pissed because so many people thought that Percy was in the right and the parents were in the wrong. I've had quite a row with two girls over at the message boards because they said that the Weasley's were awful and forced their children to live in virtual poverty. My first reaction was "Are we even reading the same books?"

The thing that I love the most about the Weasley's is that they do the best for their children that they possibly can. They create a warm, loving enviornment for their children. So, yeah, they may not have a lot of money but I can personally say that I have seen poor families who are much, much happier then a lot of rich families.

It's so obviously that they love their children but they do so in a way where they do not sacrifice their own morals and beliefs. So yeah, if Arthur spoke out against Dumbledore like Percy did, I am sure he'd get a raise or a promotion but he didn't because he stuck to his beliefs. When all is said and done, his children will respect him more for doing what was right, not what was easy.


James and Lily -

This is another post OotP topic that pisses me off to no end! People seem to think that James' actions as a 15 year old child make him a horrible person. That is just stupid because he must've grown up and matured before Lily finally feel in love with him.

The reason J&L rank so high on my list is that they made the ultimate sacrifice for their child. All they wanted to do was keep him safe. In GoF, Voldemort tells Harry to face him like a man just as his father had. This tells you that James lost his life with no regrets. He did it to protect his wife and son. Lily made the same sacrifice for Harry which is what saved him in the end.

How can anyone talk bad about him after that?! I was a jerk when I was 15 too but I have grown up. People just need to let it go, I think. (Of course, I was a little surprised but I was happy to see James shown as something more then simply a martyr.)

~~~~~~~~

I don't know... maybe I am just crazy or I wish that I had a closer family but I do not think the Weasley's and the Potter's get enough credit. I hope that changes in the last two books.

Anyhow... I love all my fellow shippers, whether they agree with me or not. Feel free to respond to this post with your own comments.

Thanks for reading my vent. I had to get it all out. I am off to work on chapter 24 of THoW!

Sarah

About James:

I think what happens here is that many of the members of the HP fandom are very quick to judgements, and maybe forget that you won't be like you were at 15 forever. Actually, I've noticed that much of the fandom consists of people at the age of 15 + or - a year or two.

Life doesn't end at 15. People change throughout their entire lifespan. I can understand the James/Lily situation immensely, as I doubt my girlfriend would have liked me very much when I was 15. I was a jerk, as most 15 year old boys tend to be. BUT, they grow out of it.

Molly/Arthur:

Percy, while he has his own views, does not understand the situation. This is truly a circumstance where someone truly is not old enough to understand. Percy is too young to understand that there are dangers such as that and too interested in advancement to see beyond his own tunnel vision. The Weasleys do the best they can, but they are of limited means. However, their household is a lot more loving than many I've witnessed. They are not bad parents.

Darkstar

I thought the L/J shippers would be interested in this topic. So I moved it from the General HP Discussion to here.

~Pen

wow, you almost made the Dursley's look.....good.

Wow.... You are like my hero.

I never really thought about it, but even though they were all evil and stuff, they did keep him, even if it was underneath their staircase. I think though, that Petunia might've let Harry stay because she was afraid of Dumbledore and his magic.

I have to add my support for both Molly/Arthur and Lilly/James. I hate when people claim that they are terrible people or terrible parents. On one message board I use to frequent, people were claiming that Molly and Arthur were selfish parents because they used the money they won in POA to go to Egypt instead of buying better books and robes for their kids. I think that the kids got so much more out of spending quality time with their whole family than having brand new books. In 10 years would any of the Weasley children remember the brand new robes or books they might have got with that money? No, but the memories of that family vacation will last a life time. I totally respect the fact that Arthur never sacrifices his beliefs so he can make more money. I think he is a wonderful role model for his kids.

Molly can sometimes be an over bearing mother, but she (like the rest of us) is not perfect. It is obvious that she loves her children with all her heart. She is also extremely kind to Harry. I thought it was wonderful how Molly sent Christmas presents to Harry in PS/SS before she even knew him because Ron told her that he would not be getting any.

James had faults at 15...imagine that! I am glad we are not all judged by the things we might have said and done in our teenage years. I think James proved what kind of young man he truly was when he went and saved Snape from Lupin in his werewolf form. He further proved himself by fighting in the Order against Voldy, and scarficing his life for his wife and son.

Truth be told, I've never seen anyone call Arthur/Molly or James/Lily bad parents, I never imagined anyone could call them bad parents. As for the Dursleys, although they hate Harry, they love their kid. They spoil him rotten, but they love him.

I don't know why, but i've always considered the Dursleys not to be evil, but not really that bothered about Harry. Sure, they took him in, but you've seen how afraid of Wizards they are, they might have been afraid not to. They stike me as abusive. They always have done.

Now Lily and James, I haven't ever doubted for a second that they were good parents. Nor Molly and Arthur. You can just tell from how JKR writes the books that Molly Weasley is one of those supermums that does everything and loves her kids to bits. And you can tell that Arthur is one of those Dads that always do as the mother says, but treats his kids when she isn't looking.

~#Epona

The Dursleys are that kind of family that you can tolerate but never really get to like. They have their good points (what they are, I don't know. I'm not a miracle worker). They hate wizards as much as the Malfoys hate muggle-borns but they haven't kicked Harry out of their house (though they've probably been tempted) even though trouble has this bad habit of following him. True, they treat Harry as little better than a house-elf but they haven't kicked him out, which speaks millions about them.

Molly and Arthur are the type of parents any kid would love to have (monetary status notwithstanding). It's no wonder that every Weasley acheives something great in their lifetime. Their parents push them to do their best without actually pressuring them too much. If they fail, Molly and Arthur aren't too disappointed; only when their kids cause trouble does that really happen (like the twins. Maybe Ron, if CoS is any sign). After all, the only thing really putting pressure on Ron is his brothers' accomplishments. Molly and Arthur have done their best to show their kids how much they care.

As for James, he can't be blamed for his behavior at fifteen. When I was fifteen, I would get in a fight with someone if they just said hello. Now I'm 17 and avoid fights like the plague. That goes to show that no one can be blamed for their actions as a teenager.

If I've restated any points, sorry. Just throwing in my thoughts on this subject.

I agree, Lilly/James Molly/Arthur are extremely good parents.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR THEM TO BE VIEWED AS BAD!

LILLY AND JAMES SACRIFICED THEMSELVES FOR HARRY AND PERCY IS JUST A HUGE GIT! EVERYONE WHO THINKS THAT LILLY/JAMES MOLLY/ARTHUR ARE BAD PARENTS THEY SHOULD BE...

well i don't think i should say that.

did i get my point across?

Lilly

ps i do know that capitals is shouting

I don't at all see James/Lily Arthur/Molly as bad parents eitheir.

Though I dislike Molly alittle when she in OoTP said in CH.5 The Order of the Phoenix USA version starting on p.88 and til p.89...

"He's not a child!"said Sirius impatiently.
"He's not an adult either!"said Mrs.Weasley,the color rising in her cheeks."He's not James,Sirius!"

Was it a kind thing to say? No. Did she have reason to say it? Absolutely.

Harry, for all he's been through, *isn't* an adult. It's a simple fact of biology and how we're programmed to mature physically and mentally. Molly knows this, and worries that Sirius doesn't. As for why she sees herself as having some right to say it, that should be pretty obvious. She has looked out for Harry since they met, and he's spent weeks in the Weasley home. By contrast, Sirius - despite his official position as Harry's godfather - has spent hardly any time with him at all. That was not by his own choice, of course, but Mrs. Weasley has been far more Harry's guardian than Sirius in a practical sense.

But it wasn't Sirius' fault. Anyway, he wanted to be there for Harry but he didn't have the chance because he was chucked in Azkaban for something he didn't do and then he had to go into hiding!

I understand that Sirius' absence was not by choice, believe me.

That does not, however, change the fact that Mrs. Weasley has spent more time as Harry's guardian than Sirius has. She's known him since he was 11 years old, and is the only person I can remember Harry crying in front of or accepting a parental embrace from.

Sirius was given the *title* of guardian, but the authority has to be earned.

Were I to suddenly find out I was adopted, the biological parents I had no contact with for 23 years would NOT have the same position to me as my real parents - the ones who raised me - even if they'd had a good reason to stay away.

I think Sirius is trying to make up for lost time by doing everything he can with Harry. It's like he is trying to make up for the life in prison that he missed and the time with his godson. Sirius also doesn't have alot of experience with kids (last Siruis saw Harry he was an infant) and might not remember how to act. Although what Molly said was mean, she needed to say this. Harry is vital to the wizarding world and if he gets hurt because of being stupid with Siruis...

I just read all the other post. I'm 15. I don't think I'm a brat. hmm....this is making me rethink the way I act at school. Are all 15 year olds brats??? Is there still hope for me???

-Kara

Haha I was thinking the same thing sugar!!

But Sirius treats Harry like he is all grown up. True that at 15 that is how we want to be treated, and true Harry has been through much more in 15 years than most in a life time, but Harry has not matured mentaly. He is still 15 and he should be treated as such.

I don't agree with that. I think that Harry is a lot more mature than most 15 year olds. He has had to make choices that grown ups don't usually have to make and he, for the most part, has made the right ones. I think he is very mature for his age.
As for Molly being right to say that to Sirius, I think that she was not.

The fact is Harry gladly accepted Sirius as his guardian, thus it is not up to Molly or anyone else, but up to Harry. You would still give priority to the parents who raised you, Harry decided to give priority to Sirius. Plus, I think the situation is a bit different, Molly did not raise Harry, she actually spent very little time with him. And IMO, Molly's motivation in Sirius's case may have come, at least in part, from the fact that she saw that her position in Harry's life was being undermined, thus she struck out against the person who was undermining it.

AllyRose

I would have to agree with AllyRose I mean Harry has in the past 5 years had to
make decisions normal fifteen years-olds don't need to.Also,for the fact that having 11years of being abused by the Dursleys actually gives him a mature thing for him I mean he hasn't trusted and has to make it on his own.Sirius is his Godfather,plus James and Lily named Sirius the Godfather not Molly the Godmother I am not saying Molly is bad or mean but you have to admit she can be
harsh and rather rude at times.

He has made most of the right choices but that doesn't mean that he's more mature.It is true that Harry has had to live through more things than most do in a life time, but we all remember the way he acted in OotP? Yes, he did have a right to be upset for not being in the loop, but if he were older and more mature he would've not thrown a fit like that. I mean he yelled at his friends for something they could do nothing about, and wouldn't listen to them when they told them why. He still has some growing up to do to me.

I think we are laboring under different definitions of maturity. I think that the way Harry acted in OOTP was pretty mature for a person in his situation.


And you think that a 'mature' person would not want answers, would not want support considering that it was primarily their life on the line? Maturity is highly subjective.

AllyRose Potter

But kids don’t always choose the best parent for themselves. They choose the one that lets them eat whatever junk food they want and stay up late and watch TV all night. Sirius is someone who Harry can have all to himself, someone who “belongs” to him. With the Weasleys it was always like he was tagging along, borrowing Ron’s family. I can see exactly why Harry would choose Sirius over the Weasleys, but I don’t think that makes Sirius the better parent, and I don’t think it means Sirius’s decisions are automatically right and shouldn’t be questioned. A man who has been in prison for the past 13 years, angry and restless, rash and lonely, versus a loving mother of 7 happy, healthy children who has shown great love and concern for Harry for the past 5 years. This isn’t to say that Sirius didn’t have the best intentions with Harry, but maybe he was being a bit too…lax with Harry at that moment. I don’t think it was out of place for Mrs. Weasley to say what she said. I think given her role in Harry’s life up until that point, she was in a position to comment on how he was treated. It was harsh and I think she wasn’t as understanding with Sirius as she should have been. Even if she was wrong, even if Harry should have beebn told more, her comments were coming from the right place. She was concerned for Harry. Who can blame her for that? I don't think those comments make her a bad parents at all.

AllyRose Potter


Oh, I disagree with this. I give her more credit than that. I don’t think that it was about someone taking her place at all. She has 7 kids of her own to mother. I honestly think Mrs. Weasly is above being “jealous” that Harry has a family of his own. I think her outburst came from a more pure place, a genuine concern for Harry.

In any case, I really can’t see how someone could call the Weasley’s bad parents (Nor Lily/James but I have actually never seen that argument made). JKR has painted them to be the model for how a family is supposed to be: loving and warm and happy. I suppose canon can be twisted to prove anything (I mean look at how much “proof” there is for all the ships out there), but the fact of the matter is, JKR intended for the Weasleys (and Potters) to be perceived as good parents. I'm surprised that anyone can think otherwise.

-McGill

P.S. Interesting topic, FayeValentine00

Sorry? 7 happy, healthy children? Her youngest daughter wrote all her secrets in the diary, was possessed and set a deadly basilisk on students. Ron has major issues of trust, self image, money, you name it. Fred and George (no matter how I love them) have no problem testing potentially dangerous products on young children. Percy abandoned his family and may or may not turn against the good side. Charley and Bill we don't know much about so I won't go into more things. Think about this. Does Molly love them all. Undoubtedly. Does she want the best for them. Yes. But has she made all the right decision for them that they are all nice and happy children? No.

This I will disagree with simply because I don't think that any one person "belongs" to any other person.

No matter what Sirius is, whether he is angry or whatever you called him, does not mean that he does not know that Harry would have been better off being told certain things. Molly goes into the mode "they're children, they shouldn't be told", she does not take into consideration that they may be safer if they do know the dangers that surround them. Sirius wasn't lax. He simply understood Harry better in this respect, he understood that Harry was upset of being left in the dark and that being in the dark may lead Harry into more danger than knowing a few things. Harry was right when he was angry at the fact that he has done and seen so much so far and now they are trying to deny him knowledge about his situation, his life. Sirius knew that. Molly on the other hand would have preferred to keep all the kids in ‘happy’ land. With the war coming, that is really not a option. Sirius understood that.

What position is that exactly? Just because she had him over a few times in the summer does not mean that she has any rights to Harry or any claim on the status of his welfare. True that the Weasleys took Harry in and that they were nice and all that, but the fact remains that Molly does not know Harry that well. She has only seen him for short amount of time and that time he spent interacting with other members of the family. She may care about him, but at that moment she did not have any right to jump in, especially the way she did (insulting Sirius) and in front of Harry. No right at all.

I don't think that she is a bad parent, but the fact is, the Weasleys are far from the idyllic family many fans seem to portray them to be. See my earlier comment about the children.

You may disagree of cause, and yes, she does have 7 children, but that does not change that fact that she has played 'caretaker' for Harry Potter. Not a simply orphaned boy who needed family, but Harry Potter, the most famous wizard in the WW. You give her more credit; I think that you are giving her more credit that is due. I am not denying all the good things that she and her family has done for Harry, I am simply putting those things in their proper context and in those contexts, her actions are not as selfless as many portray them.

Canon can not be twisted. There is very little actual "proof" to many of these ships that you are talking about. The pieces of canon can be taken out of context and interpreted one way or the other, but the whole canon can not be.

I am surprised that people think that the Weasleys are the perfect family. Look at all the problems that they have. Are they a good family? Yes. The model family? I don't think there is such a thing at all and if there was, Weasley's would not have been it.

AllyRose

Ginny was targeted by an evil man. This wasn’t caused by Molly’s parenting.



Tons of teenagers have these issues. They are hardly unusual and hardly life threatening.



Again, this is youth. Not a sign of bad parenting. The twins are reckless and carefree. They aren’t intentionally hurting people.



Well, 6 out of 7 ain’t bad. But, seriously. All you’ve done is listed faults that the children have. So they aren’t perfect. That’s human nature. You can’t blame it on Molly that she didn’t raise her children to be flawless.



No one is perfect. She has done the best she can. And I happen to think she's done pretty good. Are the kids flawless? No. But as far as having a messed up life goes, the Weasleys have it pretty easy. I mean, look at poor Harry.



Well, I assumed that it would be understood that I didn’t actually believe that Sirius belonged to Harry like an object. But obviously you missed my point. The Weasleys are not Harry’s family, no matter how great they’ve been to him. Sirius is someone who he doesn’t have to share, someone who he can feel is his legitimate guardian. I meant that Sirius belongs to Harry in the sense that he isn’t just his friend's parents, he’s the one his parents intended to take care of Harry. And that's why I can understand why Harry would choose Sirius over Molly and Arthur as a parent.



You’re really playing down all of the things that the Weasleys have done for Harry. They didn’t have to do anything for him and yet they have done their best to make him as happy as they are able. Harry’s reaction to the things that they have done are proof enough that they made a positive difference. And I think that Molly and Arthur and Lupin (as well as Dumbledore and McGonagall) have all played a legitimate role in Harry’s life since his entrance into the WW. And I don’t think that, if they thought Sirius was making a mistake they should just sit by and let him do it just because Harry likes Sirius best. Molly was being too over protective. Harry shouldn’t have been left in the dark. But I don’t think, given Dumbledore’s instructions, that Sirius should have just told him everything at that moment. Molly’s tone was harsh. But so was Sirius’s. In any case, whether she was right or wrong to make those comments is not what we are discussing. We're discussing whether or not those comments make her a bad parent and I think we've both agreed that they don't.



I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. There is no proof that her actions were not purely out of concern for Harry. I suppose there is no proof that they were not out of selfish reason, either. Though, I think when we see Mrs. Weasley’s boggart, it explains a bit of why she is so concerned. She has had experience with death in the family; she doesn’t want to go through it again. Maybe that’s why she was so concerned about Harry and the other kids. But then again, maybe you’re right. Maybe she doesn’t really care about Harry that much at all. Maybe she just wants to be known as the famous Harry Potter’s surrogate mother, and is lashing out at Sirius because he’s taking away her chance at fame.



Twisted is the wrong word. Canon can be interpreted anyway that the reader likes.



I know. That was my point.
R/Hr shippers sincerely believe that the books will go their way. They see evidence for it in the books. The same goes for H/Hr shippers. None of it is really proof. We don’t know JKR’s intent and so anything she writes can be interpreted in a ton of ways and used to prove a ton of things. But that doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have a specific intent and it doesn’t mean that just because it can be interpreted that way, that was what JKR intend to convey.



Not the model family. A model for the right characteristics a family should have: love and happiness. Both of which they have.
So the Weasley’s aren’t perfect. Who is? There is no perfect family. But I don’t think that JKR is trying to make the Weasleys out to be a bad family. They are a realistic family. They have faults, fights, issues. But they all love each other and want the best for each other. And I still stand by what I said before, that people can interpret things anyway they want, but JKR didn’t intend for the Weasley’s to be perceived as bad parents

-McGill

If Molly had taken enough interest and packed Ginny's trunk she could have found the diary. If Molly had taken enough interest, Ginny would have felt that she could confine in her mother instead of some strange diary. If Molly was such a good parent, Ginny would have known not to trust any object that can think on its own.

Ron has had these issues even before he was a teenager. Molly and Arthur know that, yet they don't do anything about it. Its all nice and good that Arthur does what he likes, but its a bit selfish of him when his (rather large) family suffers for it.

What about Dudley? They did it on purpose. Just because Dudley is a bad person, does not mean that they had the rational to do what they did to him in GOF especially since the Dursleys are afraid of magic. Not the best way to get them to treat Harry better either. It only served to make them resent Harry even more (and I didn't think that was possible).

I was arguing against the argument that they are all happy and healthy (psychologically as well as physically). I showed that they are not as happy or healthy as many would like to believe.

I happen to think that not being able to buy your children decent robes is kind off falling below the average. And you can't bring in Harry into this because his case is completely different (that's why the books are about him. his circumstances are extraordinary, their's are not, and yet they can't deal with them).

I made that argument specifically as a response to an earlier post, but the fact is, no matter why Harry choose Sirius, he choose him. If Harry felt that Molly was really as a mother to him, really as part of the family, he would have made a different choice.

I am going to use an argument my brother and I talked about, have to give him some credit on this.
Here's what DD tells Harry at the end of OOTP - CHAPTER THIRTY-SEVEN
The Lost Prophecy

Use this as a context to Weasley's generosity and what do you get???

Actually at that moment Molly was a bad parents because she put her fears above the interests of the person she was supposed to protect, Harry. The fact that she did not have this argument out of Harry's view (Harry could have simply overheard them) shows her lack of concern about Harry's emotional well being, at that moment.

Above quote from DD shows the proof about the nature of her actions. Notice that she did not take interest (beyond telling him what to do) as to why a boy who doesn't know how to get onto the platform is all alone until she found out that he is Harry Potter.

Ok. This thread is not really a place to talk about this anyway.

I was going off the definition you had in the other post, but since you changed it, ok. But then I can say that the Dursleys are a model family too. They love each other, they love their son. The family is provided for and has a nice house, bluh bluh bluh... They are happy the way they are... Yes, we know that the Dursleys are "bad" and Weasleys are "nice", yet they have similar characteristics.

Ah. So they are realistic family, thus it is possible that Molly is not this perfect mother and that she has made mistakes and has been wrong and thus her actions can be called into question... So she is not perfect and always right... Thus Sirius could have been right in this situation and she was wrong...

We can't know what Jo had intended and I am not saying that Weasleys are bad parents, all I am saying is that Molly was wrong in that instance and that she is not the perfect mother people proclaimed her to be.
BTW, you ignored my argument as to why Sirius was acting the way he was and that he was actually right about Harry, how come???
AllyRose

Well, I'm pretty sure we could go around in circles about the arguments for why or why not the Weasleys are messed up and unhappy. Every single person I know has an issue/fault that is along the same lines as the ones the Weaslys have, incuding myself. Everyone has problems, no one is happy all of the time. But I wouldn't consider everyone generally unhappy and mentally unhealthy because of this. I suppose if you are looking for people who are absolutley happy with every aspect of themselves and thier life, people who act moral and just and selfless at all times, then, no, the Weasleys are not those people. But you let me know when you find someone who fits that bill.




That quote shows that many people would have loved to take Harry in, it doesn't prove that Molly only shows concern for Harry because he's famous. I think the boggart scene shows why she reacts the way she did. Her greatest fear is that Harry (and her family) will perish. I think that proves legitimate concern and care for Harry, rather than superficial desire for fame.



Mostly, because I agreed with it and didn't see much to argue with. Dumbledore made a pretty bad call with the whole keeping Harry in the dark plan. Sirius was right to think that Harry should know. I've always thought that Sirius was right in that argument. However, I still hold that Molly had a right to state her opinion and though I don't agree with it, I can see why she felt the way she did, and I don't think it makes her a bad parent or a bad person.




Well, yes. I don't know if someone else was previously arguing that Molly was perfect, but it wasn't me. I never stated that Molly is perfect. I don't thinkt that she's perfect at all. I don't think anyone in the series is perfect. I was agruing that calling her parenting into question is somewhat missing the point of the book. With all the prejudice, violence, and evil in the series, to worry because Molly and Arthur are poor, or because they can't moniter their kids behavior 24/7 or because she's human and makes mistakes seems a bit ridiculous. Molly's so called bad parenting is hardly a major concern for JKR, and I just wonder why so many people are focusing on small mistakes/faults of hers and turning her into a terrible mother. She loves her children, she cares for them as best she can, she doesn't abuse or neglect them. And though we cannot know for certain, I think it's pretty safe to say that JKR did not intend to make readers question Molly's parenting or dislike her character. If she did intend to do that, I think she did a pretty poor job of it.

-McGill

The question that we are really arguing for the last couple post (with other people) is that Molly is supposedly so much a better guardian for Harry than Sirius could ever be. My points were brought up to dispute the idea that Molly is this perfect mother and that all her children are perfect and that they have never done things that are irresponsible or stupid or led others into dangerous situations. (the accusations they level against Sirius). And since you are agreeing with me that Molly is not perfect that she acted badly in that argument with Sirius, I won't argue on this point anymore.

However,

I did not say that Molly only cares about Harry because he is famous; I simply said that her actions have to be put in the right perspective, that any family would have been proud to take him in.

You know I think it is a mark of just how awesome of parents Molly and Arthur are that Ginny has recovered as much as she has from that horrible insadent. Many people have made comparisons between the Ginny/Tom realtionship and molestation. I personally see JKR being heavley influnced by Lolita in that relationship. And yet that Ginny wasn't ruined by that expirance, even to the point that Harry forgot about her possession, I think is a huge mark in Molly and Arthur's favor.

You are saying that Molly is to over bearing and then say she should have gone back through and checked every item in Ginny's suitcase, and investgated her diary? It seems like a slight double standard to me.

In all the Weasley are Jo's ideal family (this doesn't mean their perfect, just ideal). And they are Harry's ideal family. Here is the quote.

"I have always been drawn to the idea of large families, even as a child The Harry Potter books were my chance to create my own, ideal big family, and my hero is never happier than when holidaying with the seven Wesleys."

Here is the link.

More over Harry himself chooses the Weasly's over Sirius, as his family, or at least as his preferred family...

OotP, "Eyes of the Snake", page 452 US Hard back

Ron meanwhile, was going home to the Burrow. Harry endured several days of jealousy before Ron said, in response to Harry asking how Ron was going to get home for Christmas, "But you're coming too! Didn't I say? Mum told me to invite you weeks ago!"

Hermione rolled her eyes, but Harry's spirit soared: The thought of Christmas at the Burrow was truly wonderful, only slightly marred by Harry's guilty feeling that he would not he able to spend the holiday with Sirius

Bolding is mine. For a chance to be with the Weasley's in a family setting for a family holiday; he is willing to let Sirius be a lone. The Weasley's are both Jo and Harry's ideal family. This is one of the things that has alway made the Chocolate seem abit icky to me. It seems slightly incestuious... But I digress.

Just about the last quote because it still remains to be seen how well Ginny recovered...

Harry did not have a prospect of going to Sirius or going to the Weasley's. It was going to the Burrow or staying at Hogwars alone. Hardly a choice.
Just before your quote.

Harry in no way choose Molly over Sirius in this instant. Taking things out of context will only work when others don't look up where the quote came from.

As for Jo's quote,
First of all, who misspelled Weasley?? Second of all, seven of them? I thought there were 7 children and 2 adults. Third of all, this was in 2000, before OOTP came out(i think) and four, this is not an interview. I have no idea where these people got those quotes from.

Well all and all she seems to be a happy kid. She's dated one boy since CoS, and seems to have enough self esteem to dump him when he acted like a pratt. She's probably going to start dating another boy in HBP (Dean), who seems to be a good guy. So she over all seems to have a good image of herself; and a good grasp on her realtionship with men. Both of these are extrodenatry things for someone who when through an abusive realsionship spanning months when they where so young. Again I give a lot of the credit to her family.



I really, really, really resent you saying that I was trying to text out of context; as I prvided the page number, chapter and edision so that anyone could find where I got it from. Nothing in your in that paragraph say that Harry is going to stay at Hogwarts. All he say is that he would"very much wanted to spend the holidays away from Hogwarts"; which as I read implied he was going to do just that. I assumed, that he assumed he would be spending it with Sirius. And speaking of context here is a bit more for the latter part of the quote you provided from OotP.

OotP US Hardback "Eyes of the Snake" page 452
He (Harry) wondered whether he could possibly persuade Mrs. Weasley to invite his godfather for the festivites too, but apart from the fact that he doubted whether Dumbledore would permit Sirius to leave Grimmauld place, he could not help but feel Mrs. Weasley might not want him; they where often at loggerheads.

So yes Harry does choose the Weasleys over Sirius. Doesn't even make a case for his goodfather because he doesn't want to upset Molly.



The reporter probably misspelled the Weasleys' name; and I don't find it all that surprising. Second yes Harry spends most of his time with 7 Weaslelys as Bill and Charlie aren't normally there. Third I gave a link to where I got the quote from. Quick-Quotes-Quill is a very reliable source for JKR quotes, as they meticulous fact check to make sure the interviews are real. The fact that quote came out before OotP isn't that important; because if Jo created the Weasleys to be an ideal family, then that is their purpose and function in the series.

ETA

Also like to add this, from Jo's site.

Gideon and Fabian Prewett were Molly Weasley’s brothers?

Yes, they were, but their history is not particularly significant in terms of the overall plot, except in so far as their deaths obviously explain and excuse some of Mrs. Weasley’s fears and her arguably over-protective stance with regard to Harry

So she obviously feels that Molly's actions are excusable; and in regaurds to her being over bearing, she says it's "arguable".

I'm sorry that I implied that, you did provide the pages number so...


You assume that Harry assumed that he would be spending it with Sirius? It seems from the quote, from the fact that he envied Ron's going home and from the fact that Harry made a specific commment about not wanting to spend the holidays at school that Harry would have had to stay at school. All alone. With Umbrage.

The second quote you provided actually points to the fact that Harry doesn' t feel part of the family. With this qoute, Harry shows that he holds a rather precaurious position in the "family", that he is afraid to bring up something that is important to him because as an outsider, it would effect his standing.

This was not said against you, it was said as a question of the validity of the site. Mugglenet and Lexicon are also very reliable HP sites yet both say without shadow of a doubt that Hermione loves Ron. So unless its said at a chat, on her website or an official interview I remain skeptical.

It's okay. I really do try to be an ethical debater though, and would never intentionally leave an important piece of info out just to make my post look better.






You assume he's staying; I assume he's going. I guess it falls down to interpation. It makes sense that he'd be going, (to me at least), because this is the first Christmas that Sirius has been in a place that Harry could visit him in. Harry makes no mention of staying and says that he wants to spend the holidays away from Hogwarts, the most likely canidate for a place for him to go would be Grimmauld Place.



Which shows that the Weasleys are important to him.  He has some issues difiantly; but then he has issues of feeling that he doesn't belong all (anywhere) all though OotP.  It doesn't change the fact that the Weasleys are the closest thing to a family he has, and that they have been wonderful pseudo parent figuires for him.






Here is a link to the archives of the paper that the quick quote quills says did the article. One the page I'm linked is an abstract of the article, unfortunaly you have to see the full article; but as you can see the interveiw is real, and as I have paid I can confirm that the quote is real. Here is the Link. Quick Quote Quill is mearly a collection of every JKR interview they can validate. There appears to be no commentary or shipping influence in the quotes you can find, and the ones you can't. It is a great tool.

There is some room for interpretation, but it doesn't make sense for Harry to be envious of Ron and Hermione for going if he had thought that he had the option of going as well. I don't see any evidence in the canon that would point to the fact that Harry might have thought that he was going to go stay with Sirius, none at all. Tell me if I'm missing something.

But then I am not arguing that the Weasleys are not important to him. Plus the fact that he felt like he didn't belong at school has nothing to do with the fact that he was afraid to bring up an issue that was important to him because he was afraid that they would reject him, along with Sirius.

Even if that is a legitimate quote, what does that actually tell us? It was said before OOTP and a lot happened in that book that changed a lot of relationships.

It makes sense (to me) why he would be envious. The Weasleys' have acted like his family since about the third year. More then that they are Harry's ideal family, I believe he once calls them his favorite family in GoF,( unfortunately I can't find that book now ). A warm family holiday at the Burrow, seems like something many people could be envious of.




No but it all stems from the fact that Harry feels alienated, and ill used, since the first chapter of the book. Harry worries that his status of "as good as a son" will change, and he doesn't want to lose it. That bond is so incredibly important to him.

Molly and Arthur (along with the twins and Ron); got that bound with him, not because they knew his parents. But because they knew and excepted him. Harry has some abandonment issues that's a fact, and I think when he deals with those issues (with the help of his ever present girlfriend ) he'll realize that even without blood, or titles, the Weasleys consider him family and they aren't going anywhere. Even if he has a different opinion then them. So I think it is Harry's issues; not Molly's that prevent him from asking to bring Sirius to Christmas.



It tells us that when Jo was creating the Weasley's up through at least GoF she was creating her ideal family. I being that she's had all seven books planned from the beginning, I doubt the character functions have changed much. Paired with her answer from her web site, I'd say that at least it is Jo's intention to show Molly and Arthur as good parents to all of their children, and Harry.

But if he had the prospect of spending a warm holiday with his parent's best friend, whom he loves, with whom he could talk about his mom and dad and have a nice holiday, then I don't think that there is much to be envious about. If Harry thought that he had that prospect that is, if he didn't (if he thought that he would have to spend the holidays alone at school) then there is something to be envious about, thus I think that he thought that he would have to stay at school.

I'll answer the rest later (have to go back to class).

Edit: I finish replying now.

Show me exactly where Harry has felt as a good son to Molly and Arthur. Aknowldeging that they are his favorite family does not make them his family. In fact saying that they are his favorite family shows that he does not consider himself part of it. You wouldn't say 'my family is my favorite'.

What???
Again, you seem to arguing against something that I never said. I never said that they are a bad family. The original argument dealt with the fact that they are not perfect and that Molly did not have the right to say those thing to Sirius, even if she did have the right to be concerned for Harry.
Plus, Jo had the main plots planned from the beginning, not everything, not every characterization, we see that on her sight when she talks of Dean's character and such, so it is wholly possible that the Weasley's role has changed as well.

You do realize that I am arguing that he's choosing the Weasley's over Sirius right? So yes it makes perfect sense to me. Sirius had been quite moody; and compared him to his father in a negative way the last time they spoke. When Harry is faced with the prospect of spending time with Sirius, or the Weasley's who have always expected him for him, not his familiar background, I think he'd rather spend time at the Weasleys.





He worries about losing the "good as a son" status here.

OotP Chapter 9 "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley" US Hardback page 172

Harry watched them go, feeling slightly uneasy. It had just occurred to him that Mr. and Mrs. Weasley would want to know how Fred and George were financing their joke shop business when, as was inevitable, the finally found out about it. Giving the twins his Triwizard winnings had seemed a simple thing to do at the time, but what if it led to another family row and a Percy-like estrangement? Would Mrs. Weasley still feel that Harry was as good as her son if she found out he made it possible for Fred and George to start a career she thought quite unsuitable?

Standing where the twins had left him with nothing but a guilty weight in his stomach for company, Harry caught the sound of his own name...

In the same chapter he expresses no surprise when his body appears along with the rest of Molly's children.

page 176

"Mrs. Weasley, just get out of here!" shouted Harry, staring down at his own dead body on the floor. "Let someone else-"

So the bond is something that is quite important to him. He worries about losing it. It's something that he believes in. I am not arguing that Harry sees the Weasleys completely as his family, because your right he doesn't. He still views them as something he can lose. Plus he has no real standard to measure family by; he doesn't really understand the concept.

What I am arguing is that the Weasley's do see Harry as a part of their family. And that they are the closest thing to family that Harry has, even closer then Sirius.




I thought the and putting it in () would make it obvious I was sneaking an H/H shipping argument in there, but obviously not.

Soooo basically I believe that Harry has some real abandonment issues. I also think Hermione will help him over come said issues, because she has been such a big part of his life, and has never abandoned him or let him down emotionally.

As Harry overcomes some of these issues I think he'll realize more and more, who else has been there for him; and also who isn't ever going to fully abandon him. Get it now?




Molly very much had the right to say those things to Sirius. She has dealt with Harry Potter the boy, much more then Sirius; and she views him as himself, not a tie to his father. Does this mean she was right? No. In this case she was wrong; but that doesn't change the fact that she had the right to challenge Sirius about it.

Much as Dumbledore wrong when he said if Harry and Ron did anything else against the rules in CoS he would have to expel them. But that doesn't mean he didn't have a right to say it.

The quote I provided proves the point that the Weasley's are meant to be an ideal, though not perfect family.

I think we are meant to see them as Harry's surrogate family. Though this is just my interpretation of cannon.

The fact is, there is absolutely no evidence that says that Harry would not want to spend time with Sirius. Show it to me, if you can.


That does not, at all, say that Harry feels that she is like a mother to him. She can feel that he is like a son, does not mean that Harry does.

I actually thought you were talking about Ginny because she's part of the Weasley family.

Not in front of Harry, not that way. She deliberatly tried to take Sirius down a peg in front of Harry and she had no right to do that. They had plenty of time to resolve those issues before Harry came.

I don't see how. On both account...

(Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, Real Life got very distracting)

It falls to interpretation. I interpret it one way, you another. If you have something that can definitively prove your interpretation; I'd love to read it.

More over Harry stay/leaving Hogwarts is only half the argument. Harry not making a case for his godfather is the other half. Harry would rather be guaranteed a place in Burrow for Christmas, with out angering Molly; then to take a chance for Sirius to be included. To me at least this shows his preference for the Weasleys.



But it shows he likes the idea, and that he worries about losing the status. Having Molly view him as good as a son is something that is very important to him.



In my first post on this thread, I said that my view of the Weasley's/ Harry, makes the Chocolate seem icky to me. (It reminds me of dating your stepsibling, ) I have a picture of Harry and Hermione dancing in my avatar. I didn't think I was giving off chocolate vibes. For the record, I love the Weasleys, I think they are a very important part of the story; but that doesn't mean I think they should/will end up with Harry or Hermione.



The issue was brought up right then. Harry couldn't just be sent to his room, he would have flipped out even more. Molly was trying to protect Harry, and had to do it quickly. I don't think that she was "trying to bring Sirius down a peg"; I think she was trying hard to prevent something that she thought would be detrimental to Harry, from happening.

Same here.

I introduced passages from the book in my previous post that logically lead to the conclusion that Harry thought that he would be spending the holidays alone at school. You have yet to do the same, show me something which would imply that he did not.

To me, that shows that Harry did not have a choice at all. It was not between staying with Sirius or the Weasley's, it was between the Weasley's and alone at school with Snape and Umbrage. That is not a choice at all.

How so???

It was the way you framed the other reply. I personally don't care if the person I am debating with is Harmony or Heron. I am not debating with the ships, I am debating with the person....

The issue was obviously discussed prior to it because even Ron and Hermione were specifically told by DD not to tell Harry anything. To think that this issue came about only after Harry came to the house is unfounded in canon. Thus the issue was previously discussed and should have been settled without Harry in the room. Even in this situation, they could have said DD said this end of story in front of Harry and discussed it in private later on. There was no reason for Molly to abuse Sirius this way in front of Harry, she had no right.

I have to agree with that, but I also think that Sirius was right to a point about Harry. I do not believe that Sirius can be condemed for not being there for Harry for all those years. It isn't like he had a choice in the matter. I also think that it is a mistake to lump kids all together, i.e. Harry still is a child..Technically true, but as Hermione as well as Sirius knows, is no ordinary child. My experience as a parent has been that even children need to be leveled with. Otherwise like Harry did they will jump to conclusions about whatever. I think the key here is Harry's understanding of what is at stake. He clearly knows that Voldemort is back, he has a good understanding of what that means to him and the world in general. He understands that he was attacked by Dementors near Pivot drive etc.. He has to have some explaination as to why, he has earned the right to an explaination. The way he flew off the handle when not leveled with is a natural reaction. IF he had been leveled with from the beginning, chances are Sirius would still be alive. Harry would still have to suffer, but at least he'd not have to doubt his sanity.

EDIT: This post has been edited. If you feel there is anything missing please edit yourself once more. ~PhoenixWriter

That's why I hate abuse stories---do people really think that Molly and Arthur would do that to their children? It's obvious that they love them more than anything else. If you need proof, just look at Molly's boggart. It shows Harry lying dead when they aren't even blood related.

I also think that Lucius and Narcissa get a bad reputation as parents. Just because they're wealthy and pureblood does not mean that they hate their son. Narcissa probably dotes on him as he gets various sweets sent to him every day by her. And why would Lucius hurt his own son? Draco is a strong male heir to the Malfoy's wealth and can be offerred in service to the Dark Lord. Lucius treats Draco with strict discipline but spoils him quite a bit as well. Remember how he bought his way onto the Quidditch Team? Mr. Malfoy is very reputation oriented and would of course do almost anything to keep the Malfoy's gold standard alive.

That being said, does that sound like the kind of man who would sexually or physically abuse his son? Lucius could sufficiently discipline Draco with a lecture and speach about family duty and disappointment. He would never stoop to hitting or hurting his own child because he would consider that distinctly beneath him. We know the Malfoys consider themselves very high up in the wizarding world so they probably act as such.

If anything, Malfoy's family life is very cold and distant. Though he talks about his father enough, I doubt he sees him often in the big Malfoy manor. After all, Lucius is the kind of dad who is out politicking---not playing Quidditch in the backyard. Malfoy keeps up the front of how much his father loves him and flaunts the gifts because he isn't given the kind of love that Ron recieved. How many times do you think he heard 'I love you' before he went to sleep? That's where his bullying comes from.

Just because Lucius isn't close to his son doesn't mean that he hates and detests him. It means that he simply doesn't want to dedicate the time and effort into raising a child.