bl**dy amazing! now i can't wipe the smirk off of my face!!! wait till ms. h/g, r/h forever (a friend of mine) sees this! hahahah! i imagine she'll jump right on board with us! feels like the flying dutchman, hms harmony... waiting on tenterhooks for parts 4 and 5! great job padfoot, bl**dy effing magnificent!

Padfoot,

I just thought of something...allow me to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment with your theory...I love it though...so great!

You state that Harry and Hermione were perfectly happy to be alone together without Ron in previous books. However, in all six books it was clear that Ron was still around, even if he wasn't "physically present" with Harry and Hermione during their duo times.

In DH, Ron walks out and it's unclear to both Harry and Hermione whether he'll ever be able to find them again, because their protective charms made them undetectable, right? So if they believed that they had lost Ron for good, wouldn't that explain their tense situation more than "You choose him?" What have you to say about this, please??

Thanks in advance for humoring me. Can't wait for the next posts!

I absolutly love this thread! i found my self nodding to everything Padfoot_Lives said. i myself always overanalysed the supposed R/HR moments to see H/Hr. it is clear to me we must be the brightest ship. for R/HR and H/G have to seem 'Obviuos' to make it true. its ironic how a ship thats supposed to be sibling-like have so many deep , tender and beauitfully written moments. i also agree with what people have stated saying that JKR was subconisuoly shipping H/Hr. she got her ships confused at one point tho because Ron has the brotherly qualities more so than Harry. it just makes me admire H/Hr more and also want to hit them for being so stubborn!.

Hey!

Well, OK, first off, that is a really good point. Strictly, you’re right: this is the first time Harry and Hermione, who are naturally afraid that at any moment they might be killed, are faced with the situation that they may never see Ron again. So let’s just say, for a moment, that while the “you choose him” remark has an impact, the greater cause of the tension is the fact that they’ve lost Ron for good.

Well, this explanation doesn’t entirely cut it. OK, it might explain why Hermione cries so much, but it doesn’t cover everything else. Given that they believe they’ve lost Ron, I would imagine that the first thing they’d do is try to comfort one another (in a purely platonic, brother-sisterly way). It’s only human. When you lose one thing, you try to find comfort in whatever you have left. Harry would definitely have held Hermione while she cried; in HBP, if you’ll remember, he was once again willing to comfort Hermione after she saw Ron kissing Lavender, and might have hugged her or held her then if Ron hadn’t walked in. In DH, they might never have mentioned his name, but I think they’d definitely have tried to see each other through the storm, so to speak.

However, we see that Harry wants to comfort Hermione, but can’t do it because of Ron’s ‘expression’. I.e. guilty reaction. And, even more significantly, we see Hermione dropping Harry’s hand, for all the world as though it might kill her. These are two guilty reactions, and as I pointed out before, why act guilty if there’s nothing to feel guilty about? To me, this can’t be explained satisfactorily by anything except the fact that while the thought of losing Ron for good devastated them (of course it would), the reason for their tension and strain sprang solely from the way he left them. The “you choose him” comment.

So I think, yeah, on the whole, I think the possibility of losing Ron for good may explain some of their sadness, but definitely not the tension. That is purely Harmonian.

I agree with Padfoot here completely 110%.

Oh btw Padfoot, Nice signature;be even nicer if a certain author wrote that..

To be honest, I've gone back and looked at all the HP books the past few days and i've come to another + for Harmony shippers rather then R/hr shippers.

I dare any R/HR shippers to find a romantic moment even half as close to the one that Harry and Hermione had the Godric Hallow Graveyard. That was perhaps and in my opinion the most romantic part of the whole series.

I also notice that Padfoot, Hermione is bothered and guilted by the "you choose him" comment more then she should be. In fact, in the past all she was get mad at Ron and tell him off when he made one of these comments. Except this time it was true, and at that point I just wanted to be like, GET TOGETHER YOU TWO to Harry/Hermione because this is the SECOND time that Ron has not had faith in them.

The first time being in GoF when Ginny (the red headed witch ) and Ron didn't believe in Harry. Who believed in Harry? Give everyone here a hint, starts with a H ends with a E;Hermione

Nice reasoning here, and well written explaination. So, once again, compliments for your efforts!

my first post ever! lol...

and all I want to say is: Padfoot, thank you so much for this. I've always loved H/Hr and even after DH, I still believe they're perfect for each other. I just wish I could find the Harry in my life.

Now that the series is done,I wish there was a way to compile all the alchemy evidence as well as Padfoot's wonderful essay that we're all currently enjoying,into a book. For those who've never read the series and is curious about reading it,I think a book of H/Hr canon evidence would be a perfect alternative to the Mugglenet book. If a person has never read the series,they'll only see a one-sided view of shipping and not consider that H/Hr just as much chance of happening,if not more than OBHWF. It's time that our side of the argument was heard and I know people who have only followed the movies and have thought how great some of the H/Hr scenes have been portrayed onscreen,would probably get a clearer view of why H/Hr's relationship goes deeper than platonic friendship,they're soulmates.

Great!Great!Great!!i love ur essay Padfoot!!!awesome....I hadnt seen some of the things you wrote about and i kept on thinking how stupid i was to not notice them!

If only R/Hr and H/G shiipers could see what we see... they are loosing out on a lot!

Thank you! That makes a lot of sense. It's just weird that Harry doesn't try to comfort Hermione, and now we have an explanation.

I think the important thing is that he wants to comfort her. Then he doesn't, but he knows he should. It's highly telling of how much he cares for her, I think.

Exactly, the fact that his intention was to comfort her speaks volumes.




I forgot to add that Hermione is Harry's conciousness. Haha sorry that was my favorite one I had to have it in there or it would drive me nuts.

Hermione and Harry basically did everything but have sex, get married, and have kids in DH and the whole HP series overall.

Still makes you wonder why JK did what she did, well other then her hatred for the Hermione/Harry ship.

The whole when they looked into each other's eyes during the wedding was another thing, I didn't see her looking at Ron did you?

I'll even play Devil's Advocate for a moment..

Who fits best with Ron? A outgoing, fun, loyal, honest, non-bookwormish, loving woman. Ron doesn't want to be overshadowed by the one he's with so he of course he wants to be able to be more famous then them.

So who fits here?
Hermione? BUZZ wrong

Luna? Well there's a reason she's called Loony and goes off saying Ron is her King. That's another reason why I like this site so much and they actually agree that Ship would work best.

I really wonder why did Hermione beam at Harry at the wedding if she liked Ron...it would have been normal for her to look at the guy she supposedly liked with teary eyes in such an emotional moment...



Luna would be perfect for Ron, they would balance each other perfectly I'm sure.

‘Harry.’ She seemed to have heard his thoughts. ‘Listen to me…’


*scoffs* I s’pose this was a fluke. And so were the other five hundred and who knows how many times, as well. Two peas in a pod, these two, they must be twins. Or brother and sister. Psychic connection and all that… on the other hand, I believe there are psychological and scientific studies into the phenomenon of mind-bonds between true lovers…

Heathcliff and Cathy had it. Jane Eyre and Mr Rochester had it. Romeo and Juliet had it. I suppose they were all siblings too.

I loved this. It's just so funny. Well, most of it is actually. Ithink you're doing a wonderful job and it's true how Harry and Hermione were just the perfect couple except for the lack of kissing and sex and marriage and etc. Can't wait for your next post.

I'd just like to point out that Hermione didn't say anything about Ginny...Did she just forget she could have been tortured too? Or is Ms. Granger hiding something...perhaps a distinct dislike for our dear Ginivera.

This analysis is so good that I'm not reading it all at once. Im reading it bit by bit because the feeling is just so overwhelmingly good once I do, that I have to take in measures lol.

Edit: I'd like to add that I completly love what Padfoot said about the tension that Harry and Hermione have after Ron leaves. If they automatically started talking like normal and brushed off what he said about Hermione "choosing" Harry instead, we could have been sure that Harry and Hermione had no feelings toward eachother.

But that didnt happen! They barely spoke to eachother, there was awkwardness mixed with tension, they didnt want to look at eachother. If they had no feelings for eachother, than why is this? What are they going to see in eachothers eyes when they look at eachother? The truth? Thats what it is.

In the after that where Ron is destroying the horcrux and Harry tells Ron that Hermione is just like a sister to him, I believe it says that he was "grateful that Ron's face was hidden in the shadow" or something like that. Why is afraid to look Ron in the eye while saying that? Whats he afraid that he'll see in Harry's eyes? The truth? I repeat...thats what it is.

I intend to read this whole thread later, after I recover from spending the whole night stuck in an airport, so please excuse me if this has been mentioned. I think DH should be used as H/Hr canon. I think there were wonderful moments and the important development/action still centered around the two of them. Ginny didn't amount to a thing. It's still Harry and Hermione without any doubt.

I think the easiest solution is to ignore the epilogue by doing a 'Dallas': it was all a bad dream. Harry wakes up in a panic and is relieved that it is Hermione by his side and that his son's name isn't Albus Severus.

I think that J.K wrote the HP series with H/Hr in her mind... but since we have very convincing theories... and she might have read some of them... she might have decided to change her mind... probably thinking that H/Hr was way too predictable... and settled for the OBHWF instead...

I really don't get the fact that H/Hr had every build up a couple could have... even more build up than R/H and H/G then they would just end up with being sibling like... and the epilogue, don't get me started on that... I mean where was all those years of friendship and build up gone?? specially with them not talking... except if something is going on behind their spouses' back...

I so much like this post!



And I'd like to add that Harry was thinking about ginny but as soon as Phineas calls Hermione simple, he snaps at the portrait abandoning whatever thoiught of Ginny he was having...


The so called UST that RHr so much talk about...but no, since it is between HHR it doesn't count as sexual tension, of course.

Nice point about when he says that lame line, too.

A fic about it being a dream has already been done, ot's called "Nightmares" or something like that.

As for DH being HHr canon, it is in many points. Little and not so little moments. So, yes, it can be used for our ship.


Well, it's possible but from what I know she wrote the epilogue way before trhe ending of thre series, probably even before starting, so she had OBHWF in mind all the time. Pity the books show HHR so much, and her idea is not so believable,e specially the H/G part...

Couldn't of said it better myself.

You know, something just hit me now with the H/Hr. Every show, at least, that Dan goes on there's a question or something really random about H/Hr. Like for example with Jonathon Ross. He goes, "I thought Hermione got married to Harry. Is that right?" Dan goes, "Have you not been watching the films? It's like her and Ron." Apparently Dan doesn't see how much H/Hr happens on screen. *coughespeciallyinpoacough*

Oh Padfoot! This is so great!
U make me believe that Harry and Hermione is in love!
and make DH a lot betterrrr..

cant wait for ur next post..



btw, cant stop myself from commenting.

maybe Harry's trying to convince himself that he loves Ginnysue?
in Harry's mind :
come on Harry, you love Ginny! you dont love Hermione, she's your sister. you love Ginny, you love Ginny!

ITA. I think Harry is trying to distract himself with the map and Ginny - she has always been a distraction for him, JKR referred to Ginny as such in HBP.

He can't stand to hear Hermione crying, but is afraid of what will happen if he tries to comfort her. If they were so platonic indeed, I think he would've at least hugged her and told her things would be okay. The way he tries to ignore her cries seems heartless, but I really think he's scared to touch her.

Harry, you stupid, stupid boy!

Harry tried to get out of the bed...but it seems to me that Ron is trying to out do him. Ron and his insecurities. Poor Harry, not getting to cuddle 'Mione. Awww...So sad. Darn that Weasley!

And not only that, by saying that Ron got there first, JKR is implying that there is some kind of competition for Hermione's attention going on. There is a real love triangle brewing here, if you read between the lines.

So Harry's impulses are to comfort Hermione and this is before Ron's jealous outburst and "you choose him."

That's a very interesting insight. JKR probably didn't intend it but the H/Hr subtext almost comes across as a tragic love story: Here are two people who love each other very deeply, but each believes (because they have NEVER talked about it with each other) that the other is madly in love with someone else. I know that JKR took Hermione's name from a character in Shakespeare's play (tragedy?) called A WINTER'S TALE. I haven't read that one but I've heard it involves a king who believes that his WIFE is in love with his best friend. If I recall correctly from earlier discussions on PK, that storyline is resolved with the king finally realizing that his wife hasn't been unfaithful and doesn't love the best friend. That play is supposedly an alchemical story too. Sounds like I should find the Spark Notes for it ASAP.

Well, of course JKR strongly hinted at this in DH. I thought that it was obvious. That`s why she had Ron to left them in the first place.

Unfortunately for us, Ron is supposed to be the king, Hermione his wife and Harry is the best friend.

well said..

I agrêê. In this bơok it sêem like H/hr did Everything together expect you mention on top about 'sex" and get up in married and having kids.

well I think H/hr ship is more important for them to sex, get married and have alot of kids..they are each other soulmates. They don't nêeded to get married physically because they are married to each other soul..and that will never die...

This is Final bible for H/hr...

Ditto. I ignore JKR's interviews now. I don't listen to them or read them. The subtext for H/Hr is so strong, it's almost as though she's written them as a tragic couple who aren't together because each believes the other loves someone else more than them. As padfoot_lives wrote, a brother doesn't close his eyes when his sister touches his hair - that's what someone does when their love interest does that. Good grief. If JKR DIDN'T know what she was writing there, she's completely obtuse.

Yeah, The Day I begin to read another interview from JKR is when she finally apologies to the Harmony fans and or rewrites DH so Harry is with Hermione.

Until then, I'm not going to read interviews that the answers change weekly.

I finally read most of this Godrics Hollow analysis because I was saving the best for last. It just made me laugh out loud for how unbelievably brilliant it is and just how much it makes sense. I never really realised how beautiful and symbolic that chapter was until now. This has just completly blown me away.

Also notice the most beautiful and symbolic chapter in the book perhaps has two characters in it together. Harmony as in Harry and Hermione, even when trying to avoid it, JKR can't. It's like a ghost that will always haunt her of sorts.

Responding to both...yes, when I read it, i thought, "hey, Harry, let's time just take my car, you'll arrive there first and you'll eb able to comfort her". Blimey, it's not a bloody race!


Well, it's just normal to ignore her. She changes her mind once a week...

The siblings love is just rubbish. Never seen brother and sister acting this way, ever.

The tragic couple idea is interesting.

The Tragic couple Idea is quite interesting, reminds me of the song I posted but removed last night. If people were interesting in seeing it I'd post it again. All about JK and How she treats us Harmony Fans, it's already a song but edited lmao..

I know this had been mentioned before a million times but this quote is driving me insane.



R/Hr shippers like to say that this was a neutral quote and didnt really mean anything. However, if JKR intended it to be neutral, should it have gone something like this?

In the front row, Mrs Weasley and Madame Delacour were both sobbing quietly into scraps of lace. Trumpet-like sounds from the back of the marquee told everyone that Hagrid had taken out one of his own tablecloth-sized handkerchiefs. Hermione turned and beamed at Harry and Ron; her eyes, too, were full of tears.
‘…then I declare you bonded for life.’

Makes a lot more sense...but no...it was ONLY Harry! Yeah neutral indeed,

Maybe it's supposed to stand that Harry and Hermione were meant to be the two who didn't come together since they thought neither of them liked each other and thus went with the second best? Ugh. Still crappily written.

~Alexius

Exactly, It is crappily written. That's why I feel that DH has more plot holes and mistakes in it when compared to what JKR says then swiss cheese.

It's one of the things that ruined DH for me in so many ways. JKR could of saved herself a lot of trouble, and mistakes if she just did what made the most sense and was right and had Harry/Hermione get together..

It would have made more sense, and overall would have felt more complete than the crap she wrote, yes.

~Alexius

I just find it a little disturbing in a way that she would risk destorying the story she has been writing about for over seventeen years because she cares more about the red head family then she does about the plot and pairings.

It's bad writing, period, to keep yourself to an ending you had planned before you wrote the rest of the series. If you keep yourself too much to a rigid outline with no room for flexibility, you'll get crap like book six and book seven.

~Alexius

Well the thing is Alexius, we'll never know what the original ending was. JKR changed the ending I read in one of her first interviews. She changed the last word from being 'scar' and she shortened it by like 10-20 pages. She didn't want to have a whole chapter as a ending itself, and wanted to focus on the kids of the trio.

Personally that has to be one of her biggest mistakes in the Harry Potter series. I feel that she should of calmed down after OOTP, looked at where she was and saw that it was clearly Harry/Hermione even then. Then we would of avoided many of the crap plot writing and pairing writing in HBP and DH.

If anything it was like Ron kissing his sister when he kissed Hermione in DH. They fought through all seven books except the last hundred pages. They probably fight every waking moment for nineteen years, surprised she hasn't killed Ron by then..

You should certainly never bother with her interviews, what she says in them and what she writes in her books have hardly ever had any correlation.

I think it says something about H/Hr that even when she ended the whole thing and tied it up, it is the only ship to actually have any real meaningful moments in the books and the only one to come out of the whole series and still be plausible.



She killed him years ago, Ron in the epilogue was an Inferi

Well, it might actually be that everyone in the epilogue was really a band of death eaters under the polyjuice potion, and that their real counterparts were skiing in Alaska.

~Alexius

Kracker - That is a very good point made.

Can anyone name some memorable romantic moments between Ron and Hermione other then that kiss at the end of Book 7?

Lets see for Harry/Hermione, just off the top of my head and naming quickly..

Book 1: Harry sending Hermione before he goes off to fight Voldemort, and saving her from the troll..

Book 2: Hospital scene after Hermione gets petrifyed. Also the hug when she yelled You did it! You did it!

Book 3: Saving Buckbeak, her having her hands wrapped around his back as they wrote Buckbeak to save Sirius. Oh and the hug at the end of the book.

Book 4: Hermione helping Harry with the tasks. As well as Hermione believing Harry while Ron and Ginny didn't.

Book 5: When Hermione went down in the final battle at the department. Other parts in the story.

Book 6: JKR really tried to split apart Harmony in this book, making them fight for stupid reasons.

Book 7: The tent scenes a little, Oh and of course the most romantic scene in HP history (The Graveyard scene at Godric's Hallow)

Ron and Hermione:

Book 1-7: Fighting, Bickering, Ron causing Hermione to cry atleast twice a book. Oh and him being a coward in Book 7..Yeah that's real love right there..*Rolls eyes and sighs*

She could have also have Hermione beam at Ron instead of Harry. Kind of foreshadowing the final couple. Why she out Harry there and then did go for HHR is beyond me.


Definitely bad writing, indeed.

As for the romantic RHr moments...the bast I can find, wanting to see at it this way, is the Yule Brawl. Not really romantic but clearly shows he likes her and her words might be taken as her liking him (not that I think they mean that, but still...). Or, her storming off once she sees him kissing Lav. But hey, this is not really romantic, it's just moments that show they might like each other. Nothing like HHr.

These very same moments prove they aren't made for each other, ironically enough, as well.

~Alexius

Let's not forget also one simple fact.

No harry = No Hermione/Ron friendship never mind relationship.

It was RON's fault that Hermione went crying into the bathroom.

It was HARRY's idea to go look for Hermione after Ron hurt her.

It was HARRY who jumped on the troll's back, willing to die for Hermione then and there.

It was HARRY who didn't laugh at her when she made S.P.E.W, didn't make hateful comments to her at anytime or not accept her intelligence.

However it was RON who hated her intelligence and still did in Book 7.


Just makes you wonder what JKR was smoking when she was writing Books 6-7 lmao

Not to mention that Ron has never ever contradicted himself about the fact that he only likes girls for their looks. (i.e. at the end of HBP when he said Prince wasn't "that much of a looker.")

~Alexius

Of course, Ron is a guy all about looks.

That also explains why he saw a more beautiful riddle Hermione then what she really did look like when the riddle Hermione and Harry came out of the locket in the woods..

exactly, and by doing that it seems like Ron is trying to prove himself to Hermione, which means he thinks he's not worthy of her. (Which IMO isn't quite so off base ROFL) Ron has, I think, always been insecure about being compared to Harry, which made the whole Horcrux scene to die for. Heh.

Harry has natural impulse V.S Ron must prove himself to date Hermoine.

Harry would have made the best choice in the world by dating, and/or taking Hermione on as a wife. But alas... Cannon sux. OH well. at least I know what love is!



This quote makes me laugh everytime, Hermione doesn't specify that she's talking about the Potion until after Ron looks at her. If it were me writing, if she was supposed to be talking about potion I would've said 'Ohh, Harry, you're polyjuice potion looks much tastier than Crabbe and Goyle's.' but no. It says "Oh, You look much tastier than Crabbe and Goyle, Harry."

Sounds to me that its just Hermione's fantasies are getting the best of her. *wink wink nudge nudge.* ROFLMAO!



Rofl. Ok if its say pitch black outside, well, I dunno there's got to be a few stars out, but even then its kind of hard to see. I think she'd have to be a few inches from his face. Oh, that's only breathing room! Hermione doesn't love Harry! She's just close enough to kiss him because shes worried, y'know because she does that all the time with Ron...Yep. Ron and Hermione are perfect for each other.