I agree with you, which is why it was annoying for us to be villianized as a group in that interview.

All character bashing has to have some truth to it. While Heron/Choco bashing of Harry and Hermione (not just the pairing) is based (loosely) on canon, their vision of the characters are so far off as to be from another book. You know, for ships that are supposedly obvious, they seem to have a great lack of evidence. Why else would they resort to play-ground level tactics.

The problem is because most of the R/Hr shippers take the relationship on face value i.e. their obviousness, they don't see the distinction between character bashing and character criticism/analysis and rather blend the two put in a negative light i.e. bashing Ron. I've seen many H/Hr's who absolutely loathe Ron, H/Hr's who adore Ron and H/Hr's who are neutral to Ron. However, the arguments that H/Hr's made was that Ron wasn't emotionally up to the level of Harry and Hermione was because he had jealously issues, he was still immature etc (which is normal for a 14 year old). which when argued Herons saw this as character bashing whereas we just see it as a flaw in Ron (an argument supported by Rowling when she said in that interview Ron was behind Harry and Hermione in terms of maturity and that he needed to mature in HBP - even though it was more of a case of pegging Hermione back).

That is where the fault lies. I believe also because of this, Herons think that we think Harry and Hermione have no flaws because they are more mature than Ron himself which adds to Herons thinking Harmony think H/Hr are so perfect because they have no flaws etc. etc. therefore they bash Ron to make their ship look even superior/better whatever you'd like to call it.

Theres are lot more problems with the hate that goes on in fandom, and that was just the Ron-bashing issue. There are too many stereotypes, generalisations and misconceptions with all the ships and too many to turn back the clock and be civilised its gone that far (there are always bad apples in all ships not just Harmony because there are as miltant if not more so ones in the Heron/Chocolate camp as there can be in the Harmony).

If you disregard the interview where both Emerson and Melissa are rabid Heron/Chocolate supporters and you read Rowling's comments before the interview about the ships then you'll see when asked in a neutral position she singles out BOTH Heron and Harmony ships as scary. She is not going to hurt some of her most loyal fans that helped build up HP in the interview. But in doing so, she has insulted to a degree a large portion of her fans i.e. us, which she recognised in the interview "valued members of my readership". However, the damage was already done.

Of course the whole interview led to another misconception which was all H/Hr's disliked the book because their ship didn't happen and because R/Hr 'got together' and H/G got together. Which IMO was a stupid misconception because most of Harmony whilst disliking that aspect of the book, disliked the book as a whole i.e. the plot, character development, too much exposition, too fanfic like, things were disjointed. See how easily generalisations can be made up??

If the books did end up in H/Hr I wonder what the outcry of the Heron/Chocolateer ships be like afterwards. Emerson closing his site in protest perhaps?? I think the GOF promotional pics of H/Hr feels like karma for all thats happened with HBP. If Herons and Chocolateers are outraged by that, imagine what would happen if the books do end up being H/Hr.

On summary, the hate goes both ways to some extent and whether that will change back to civil conversation after the final book has come out remains to be seen. At least we'll have Rowling's full explainations of why she did what she did, why she said what she said and why it ended up how it did so that should to some extent also help whoever looses in the end (unless everyone looses and some of the trio die).

The thing that annoys me is not that it is H/G as of now, or R/Hr.

I hate how it is written, and how the characters had to be broken to get to it. This has been stated.

But what I hate most of all is that we have no answers. The Herons got to ask their questions. Harmony has no such luxury.

I would LOVE to be able to ask Rowling a few questions on why she wrote things the way she did if there was NOTHING between Harry and Hermione.

I also love the generalization that we are a minority of the fandom. Thats not true. Perhaps in the online shipping wars, but that doesnt even mean we are a small group. It's a sizable number. And among non shippers, casual readers or movie watchers...every.single.one I've ever talked to has always asked me (as the resident HP expert) "when do Harry and Hermione hook up in the books?"

I was talking to my best friends little sister in law the other day who is all of 14. And even she was saying she didnt like HBP because she didnt like how the characters were torn up.

I guess the nutshell of this post is we deserve an answer, and not just backhanded slaps in interviews and on her website.

I've accepted that our ship wont sail. If some crazy thing happens and it does, I'll be happily surprised.

But what I'll never accept is us not getting our questions answered. We deserve that much.

I thought I should add my two cents into the why topic.

It's plain and simple. Before the debunking, there were really only two "ships". The Harmonians and the OBHWFer's Sure there were other combinations but they werent taken seriously. They were just for fun and for kicks. We were the only ones that took our ship to heart, providing arguments and essays for our side. So we're the "delusional" ones because lets face it we lost. At least in their eyes. And they are also sacred senseless because we are doing the one thing they wouldn't have done. They are fence riders who go with the author or the popular thing. So had the table swung the other way they would have given up. Claimed that fanfiction was crazy or at least Harry Potter fanfics were and moved on to DBZ or Gundam or other sources of fanfiction. So they expect us to do the same thing. The fact that we are not terrifies them. And being the "second place" ship we have to catch all the crap because things didnt go our way. And you also have to take into account that most Herons are under the age of 18 while most Harmonians are over 18. Yes I know there are exceptions so dont call me on that. But as a majority the Herons call us names and point fingers because lets face it, they are children. What more do we expect from children talking about a childrens book?

Hope that sheds a least some light on the issue

I agree that the Herons and Chocolateers always have the characters of their favorite pairings their way. How can they change their personalilties just to suit their ship? I've written some scenes in my most recent fanfic when Ron (yes Ron) unloads his anger on Harry and then Hermione later. I think that Ron's bottled up jeaslously over Harry will reach an exploding point some time in the next book and I believe the trigger point will be H/Hr together. The Herons seem to have Ron the superior Harry and have Hermione fall head over heels for him. They have forgotten that Ron does so some jeaslously over Harry and he seems to hide it.

Ron's anger will have to come out at some point just like Harry's did in OotP. No one can keep their pent up anger inside them for so long; even if they did. The consequences can be disasterous. As I said before; Ron's anger will explode some time in the next book because he's kept his anger quiet and we don't hear of his outbursts. Not by Harry nor from anybody else. Before you say I'm wrong; Hogwarts is a big place and sound easily echos through the corridors and anybody can hear someone let loose their anger. Unless they used the Silencing Charm and I'm sure Ron hasn't mastered it well enough to help him when he's angry.

I find it quite annoying to read how OBHWF supporter are either less intelligent or all childish. This isn't a thread to point out why you dislike the opposite or think less of them, its a thread to get why Harmonians are that much disliked in fandom.

Would you mind to get on this topic again? Aside this I can tell you most OBHWF supporter I had to do with are between 20 and 40, everything but stupid though they probably had a very different opinion of me.

Well in all honesty that attitude (and I do it, often) probably has a lot to do with it. When we cant get a OBHWF to see our POV, we just fall back to "well you must not be smart enough to see it"

There's a fine line I think. I've never insisted there is no support in the books, that it's obvious its meant to be Harmony. When I get mad is when I'm told there's nothing there at all. Sometimes its tough to take the high road and say "your opinion". I think we have a tendancy to dismiss the age/maturity/intelligence of the other side of the fence.

Wow, that is a gross generalisation. Of all the time that I spent over at the COS forums, I never once encountered that attitude. I've encountered and been guilty of simply resorting to snarky comments simply because they refuse to even read my posts (they keep arguing the same point) but I've never seen the mightier then thou attitude from any Harmonian. Possibly at some other forums though.


I do agree with your second point about dimissing age and maturity of the opposition. Often we think that H/Hr is the more mature relationship because it's not built upon jealousy and bickering. I think this is often a faulty thought because we don't know if Ron and Hermione's relationship (as it is) is meant to be romance based upon the bickering equals love type realtionship, or if it's just a simple clash of personalities.

I think that it is because we are the only other ship that was ever a real threat to them. There are plenty of other ships, but none of them had a chance in canon. H/Hr, on the other hand, always had at least a slight chance just as R/Hr did. Therefore, we are the ones they hate. They are less likely to hate a ship that isn't a real threat to them.

Here's something a friend of mine posted publicly a few days ago on her LJ:

So there's this crazy acapella comedic group called "Moose Butter". I heard them today at a choir conference thing I went to. They were hilarious and they sang a fantastic Harry Potter spoof song to the tune of "Pretty Woman". It made my little shipping heart content and made me squee like the fangirl that I am.

My favorite part is very obviously bolded and underlined.

Harry Potter, you live beneath the stairs.
Harry Potter, you've got unruly hair.
Harry Potter, the giant Hagrid he comes to call
You're not a Muggle after all
(Wizard)
(Alohamora)

Harry Potter, you've got a cloaking cape
Harry Potter, beware Professor Snape
Harry Potter, up in the tower you have your room
You started flying on a broom
(Nimbus)

Harry Potter I'm quite sure
You'll like your life in Gryffindor
Harry Potter, you cast your spell on me
Harry Potter, when school starts
You'll fight against the darker arts
Harry Potter you cast your spell on me

Harry Potter, your books are super keen,
I love your bogey-flavored jelly bean.
Harry Potter, you're playin' Quidditch up in the sky
But just beware the evil eye.
(Voldemort! Aaah!)
(He-who-must-not-be-named!)

Harry Potter, I think you will go far
Harry Potter, I dig your facial scar
Harry Potter, when you grow up what will you be?
When will you marry Hermione?
(Book Seven)
(I do...ha ha... I'm so pretty..ha ha..)

Harry Potter, please don't end
Harry Potter, you're my friend
Harry Potter, I'll miss you when you're gone

Harry Potter, let me look
At the end of the seventh book
I gotta know how things turn out for you

I just hope the Herons or Chocolateers don't get wind of this or they'll go balistic. Great song spoof of the most famous of the Roy Orbison songs. I would have never thought of a song like this, but I don't like spoof of my favorite song (I'll make an acception for this one). They may also do their own spoof of another love song (I don't think that a spoof of Pretty Woman will be in the right tune if they change it). The spoof is well in tune to the original song the spoof is based on and the Herons or Chocolateers can't change it to their way since it will be wrong to do a spoof of the same spoof they are spoofing (you follow?).

That spoof doesn't bother me all that much, I think it is kinda cute and really clever, even though I don't agree with the Harry marrying Hermione bit. Other than that though, I feel the same way about the books, oh, and us H/G and R/Hr shippers have made spoofs before, so I expect the same from you guys as well. After all, we all support our ships and love everything about our supported ships, and in the end, that might just be the problem.

Two people can be having an awesome conversation about HP, and then a ship is mentioned, and the other person doesn't support it. Automatic tension is built even if both HP fans are talking politely to each other about one of their favorite topics. That just seems to be how it goes. In the end we all have different opinions and this causes conflict, which causes hate. That is just how it works.

Kinda makes you think that JKR really enjoys arguing -- both personally and watching her fans do it. She certainly doesn't do much to discourage the arguing.

Since I am new to the fandom, I am still trying to figure out the dislike for H/Hr. I can understand the likes/dislikes of other ships but this one for some reason. Could some one enlighten me or point me to some links?

I've been trying to figure out all the hate myself. I haven't really figured it out, but it seems to have to do with the fact that we're the only true threat to R/Hr and H/G... Other than that, I can't figure it out...

- Shady

I think the generalization that OHBWF'ers are immature/dumb has some merit, whether any of us would like to admit it or not. Just look at the behavior that JBaker described and the trolls we've had. I don't mean that every single Heron (or Choco) is like this, but I'd be lying if there wasn't a sizable chunk that wasn't like this. Kinem (and anybody else that gets in a debate), if the opposition doesn't want to listen , the "high road" is simply to leave. Don't let them waste any more of your time.

Sorry about that rant . Now getting back on topic.

I think why Herons and Chocos both hate us is because all of their shippy theories read like examples of how not to construct a logical argument, and of course we never let them get them get away with it. Harmonians don't like Hermione for just any old reason . Let's take a famous example. In "D’you Really Think They’re Suited? Why Hermione is Not the Right Girl for Harry", !@#$%'s (I'm not going to say their name) first argument is that H/Hr are not suited because Hermione doesn't make Harry laugh and cites the time they shared before the first task as an example of this. Harry may have needed some laughter, but he needed to survive the first task, and what he needed from Hermione most was her assistance.

Simply we know what ship would be the most logical after all the events in the books, and the other shippers try to keep that little suspicion, that we are right, that is bugging their minds, at bay calling us delusional as that could make every theory they have grow stronger and righter...

No, I don't think that at all regarding Herons and Chocolateers. I disagree that we are the ones that attack, and I also disagree that most are immature.

It's not a case of immaturity. It's a case of seeing different things. I think it might be possible that most Herons and Chocolateers are more believing that the series is heading that way, but some undoubtedly believe they are suited. While I agree that the books could be heading that way, I disagree that they are suitable.

Thus I think that most of the debates comes from those whom think the books are heading that way but most of the nasty comments comes from those whom believe they are suitable.

As a H/G and R/Hr shipper, when I read what you said above, it makes me feel as if you are saying that you are smarter than I am. At least, that's the vibe I get from it, and it makes me feel inferior. Now, I know that was not your point, but it just makes me feel kinda bad because I know I wouldn't say that about the H/Hr ship. Also, you just made a generalization about all H/G and R/Hr shippers, because I know for a fact that I never called a H/Hr shipper delusional, not once, nor have many of my friends that are H/G and R/Hr supporters. I guess I just wanted to point out how H/Hr shippers get generalized by H/G and R/Hr shippers and H/G and R/Hr shippers get generalized by H/Hr shippers.

It all has to do with our differences in opinions.For example, there could be a few H/G and R/Hr shipper out their who absoutly hates Hermione and then they go around websites and let it be known, this could then lead to the misconception that all H/G and R/Hr shippers hate Hermione. Yet, I would know this to be a lie, because I personally love Hermione, I see a lot of myself in her. By then though, that misconception will have already been inbedded in the HP shipping world and there would be nothing else that can be done. This false example can show what ended up happening to H/Hr shippers, it may be sad or aggreviating, but true.

Everybody of us over at CoS did once a time lose their temper and became snarky, ironic or witty the same probably counts for the opposite too.



We had trolls who shipped H/Hr too and were banned just out of the same reasons. Over at CoS existed enough H/Hr shippers who acted at times just like the opposite's trolls. Just they were much earlier banned than the OBHWF's one, in fact some never were banned. No, I don't think it gots much merit.

I would also loose my temper when I'm angered but I try to keep my temper under control. Harmonians being easier to ban from CoS forums than the OBHWF shippers. Now that just dosen't sound right. I may be gettin off topic here but why ban a fan of the series just because they support a different ship. They may be banned just because they have become an annoyance to the "main" ships at CoS and this (to me) sounds like a hate crime on the net at CoS.

Remember what happened to the African Americans before the Civil Righs Act of 1964 was signed, the Jews during WW II, and the way the Japanese treated their POWs during WW II are just some examples of hate crime from history. How is it that a OBHWF shipper can get away with a major flame (even if they were reported by a lot of members) and they don't get banned. I find it frustrating that they are leaniant for the OBHWF supporters to get away with a major flame that's against the Harmony shippers; while the Harmony shippers will get banned by just one flame in which they see as not a flame but as a correct way to debate. I think that in the near future; CoS of become an entire Harmony-free site while the OBHWF shippers can flame our ship as much as they can without the fear of being banned. This is just my look at the current situation and I apologize for this post since I find it appauling that they would do something like this on a public forum. Our forum at Portkey has a set of rules that govern flames and both sides are warned when they have gone too far.

Again I apologize for this post since I normally don't let loose my anger through a post, but this one just makes every Harry Potter site look bad.

Harry and Hermione forever!!!!

Well it's true isn't it? Both sides feel the almighty "I think I'm right. You are wrong" concept. It's part of every argument known to mankind. You can't expect the opposition to actually, even after they respect your idea as your belief, and strictly speaking, of course you are entitled to that belief, will at the end of the day go off and establish that belief as their own...heck, they'll even get this slight egotistical feeling: 'Now that theory there...well it's soooo wrong...those poor unfortunate souls that feel that way, god bless them, they actually think what they believe will happen' More than likely this just leads to feelings of sympathy. But you can't go stating, omg that is sooo mean, you hurt my feelings. Everyone is faulty of this kind of thinking. You are on a H/Hr site and thus more likely you will read comments that have this brash edge towards other shippers. But as is the same situation if I went to a R/Hr site and took their words as anything more than just their veiwpoint. I just don't let it bother me. Be strong in what you believe in...and don't let what other people think about what you believe in stop you. It's okay to be a part of the minority...just think of it as more original than most.
And perhaps get used to the idea that most people out there don't give a rat's foot about your feelings. The idea is to be respectable and tolerant. Like my quote says "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Thank you Aristotle!

I'm sorry, FALSE-SIGNS. but I hadn't ment to come off as whiny or childish. I put that in there to prove a point that some of you made quick generalizations about H/G and R/Hr shippers that just weren't true. So, I just wanted to let you all know that, simple as that, I didn't want you guys to care about my feelings either. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding and I realize how you came to the conclusion that you did. I'll try to be clearer in my future posts.

Well, this is only my impression of the things over at CoS and probably this just occured like this because more Herons reported Harmonians, merely because they were more.



This is really a wrong comparing IMO. We're not treatened like Afro-Americans or Jews, whatever you like to cite. This was, even in its ugliest form, a discussion about books and opinions and not about certain groups, race etc. We're not by any case in a situation compareable with those who are the so called minority in countries. If you like you may start an own case for virtual reallity or regarding literate opinions but please don't go and compare stuff what happens in this fandom with reality.



Yeah, it is true but there is a different between coming off as rude or to be diplomatic about it.

I want to explain my point a little deeper, and the first thing to remember in any debate like this is a point made doesnt mean everyone.

Not ALL harmonians act the same, and same goes for herons, chocos and anyone else.

my point is this. We base our ship on something we all saw. We saw a deep relationship between the 2 of them, and that something is written on the page. Reading comp is a measure of intelligence, it's used in standardized testing everywhere as such.

It sounds harsh, but if I cant get someone on the other fence to even SEE what I see (as I've said before, I have strong faith in my ability to read)...see the symbolism, see all the little things...well what am I supposed to think? It's either say "well I guess I dont know how to read myself" or "the person on the other side of the internet cant read"

Whether some of you like to admit it or not, I've seen many Harmonians (I'm guilty, I'll be the first to say it) dismiss the intelligence of the other side out of exasparation. My VERY first debate was like this, I nearly got banned at COS because I was arguing about why rowling had been writing Ron out of climaxes like PoA and such. I was arguing literary intent and get "Ron had a broken leg". I was dumbfounded, and the only thing I could think was "this person clearly isnt on the same level as me. And it's not right of me to paint everyone with that brush, but it happens so much I guess internally I cant help it.

And the problem comes when intelligent people on the other side see it. Its not OK, and I'm trying to stop myself from doing it. I cant speak for anyone else.

First of all, no one likes to be wrong, ever. We will fight to the death for our beliefs if we believe strongly enough in them. Harsh words and hatred are a natural part in differences of beliefs. But they are also a part of those who can't see beyond their own views. Though, in heated discussions we say whatever we can to make the other side see our point, even when they blatantly don't want too. So, we insult their intelligence to degrade their opinions of our beliefs. Both sides do this, well actually all sides do this, weather to a small extant or, to the much larger 'troll' extant.

Its worst when people won't listen to you and have no better argument then "It's obvious!" or "You're Delusional!" Frankly when I see this I laugh, because it's such a sad part of the debates. People dismiss others with petty name calling when they may very well have valid theories. Again, both sides do this, no one is a Saint in the shipping wars.

Second, people don't like those who stray from the herd. And the herd is what ever group you're apart of. From my searches of shipping, (I only got into it very recently.) It seems that after the interview the opinion of H/HR shippers has gone down to the point that most pass them off as deluded beyond help. Which is really quite sad as the theories I have read here are, in most cases, VERY well thought out and not the grasping at straws that many claim them to be.

You guys just won't go down until you're told from the horse's mouth; until Rowling says without any way to twist it that "H/Hr isn't going to happen." Which is, truly, why I love coming here and reading your theories. And because you just won't die after an interview which would most likely have killed almost any other ship, it ticks people off. Because of that godforsaken interview you will always be told you are wrong. I bet even if H/HR did happen in cannon many people in other ships would still call you wrong.

That's not say that H/HR shippers are smarter, they aren't really, in general I mean. It just means that, more often than not, they will back up their opinions, to show that it is indeed in the literature, when other's feel that they shouldn't have too. That their ship is the right ship, and you just can't read. And it seems other ships take that as acting superior, when in reality that’s how you should argue. You should always have proof to back up your statements. It doesn’t matter how obvious it is to you, you should also be able to back it up on your own.

Again, I feel that H/HR shippers are hated for the mere point of them not dying off when everyone else thought they should have. Weather you are wrong or right in the end, I'll be joining you for this fact and because I believe and see the H/HR relationship, and believed in it before I found shipping. Your theories just strengthen my resolve.

Take care,

Xonze

Sorry if you feel offended by my post. Fact is, most of the R/H and G/H shippers I've met have the attitude I've described. So, I got carried away in a generalisation that, I admit, it's not true. However, my take on the reason the ones that call H/Hr shippers delusional do that remains. Mind you, it's just my interpretation, so that could be easily wrong. But that's how I see it.

Basically, yes, I think you've all hit on most reasons that H/Hr get most of the animosity on the internet shipping wars.

Primarily probably for personal reasons- just as some of you have said: a person sees it one way, has a preference that way and doesn't like being told they're not right or even might not be right.

Then theres definitely the feeling that H/Hr is the next most likely ship if R/H isn't going to happen. And on that note its not just the threat- its the same feeling of someone saying you're crazy. I.E. H/Hr is the absolute most obvious ship if you just hear the basic plot of these books. It was a surprise (a sweet surprise in my world) that JK SEEMED to be giving the most incredible heroine to the boy who has always been overshadowed by both family and friends. So when I read the books and saw R/H and then found a fanbase for H/H it was confusing... and it was a sort of obsession to find out why.

One more reason I can think of is that, in general its very hard to have a proper discussion about it on a forum because you'll always have people that will just want to settle the issue by using the amount of people they know that thought the same way they did independently. Both sides can do it. So the whole thing becomes a game of table tennis. This is so frustrating that the differing voice- whether or not they have an intelligent argument- is blamed for being there to incite the whole thing.

Perhaps it is as simple as a different JK quote... her one line in the Simpson's (I'll paraphrase) "He grows up and marries you, is that what you want to hear?"

Yes, its exactly what I want to hear, because I love him.

I know what you mean. Where we see patterns, such as JKR writing Ron OUT of climactic scenes (the Time-Turner episode, the battle in the Veil Room in the DoM), the general Heron opinion seems to be "Well, if Ron had been there, things might have gone differently" or "Ron would have felt the same as Harry if he'd seen Hermione struck down that way." HELLO! This is FICTION. Ron wasn't present. He didn't just wander off; JKR wrote these scenes so that Ron wasn't there. In effect, Ron was excluded from important, often pivotal points of at least 2 books, moments that Harry shared with Hermione and which appear to contribute to their emotional bond - whatever that is. Ron not being there was JKR's choice, not an accident. So if JKR did NOT intend for those moments to showcase the deepening relationship between Harry and Hermione, why did she write them that way? Were they examples of her characters running away with the plot? I'm willing to admit that SPEW could have been Hermione "wandering". But I really have difficulty seeing JKR "wandering" with Harry's character, because we see almost everything from Harry's point of view. So what was the point of scenes like that? Anyone? Bueller?

I've been wondering about that myself. Ron's been slowly moving out of the climactic scenes ever since book 1. He was struck down in the Chess Game and Harry and Hermione moved on, only to have Hermione go back through the fire and Harry to go on alone. I think this may happen in book 7, but I digress...
Then in CoS, it was Hermione who was taken out of action first. Ron and Harry went down to the Chamber, but Ron was separated from Harry because of the wand incident. Again, Harry alone moves onward.
As you've both described, in PoA Ron was attacked by Grim!Sirius (*cough*Symbolism!*cough*) and Harry and Hermione once again moved on and "saved the day." However it was Harry alone who conjured the Patronus.
In GoF we saw Harry and Ron have their first fight, and Ron was given very little page-time during their fight, and Harry spent more time with Hermione but missed Ron greatly (come on, he was 14). Again, Harry is the one who survived the Tournament and dueled with Voldemort at the end.
OOTP, Ron gets separated from Harry, Hermione, and Neville and we don't see him for a few pages. Hermione gets hit with a curse and is taken out of action again, then it's Harry and Neville who battle the DE's until the rest of the Order come.
HBP - Harry is more separate from his friends than I've ever seen. He and Dumbledore go to SPOILERS! the Cave, battle the Inferi, return to Hogwarts where they battle more DE's -- note that Hermione and Ron are both absent during this time -- and Dumbledore gets killed. Harry didn't triumph in this book, he didn't really do very much IMO. Anyway, back to the topic.

I've read and reread everyone's posts and now it's time to offer my two cents I think that Harmonians get most of the hate because we were actually a threat (and still are, in my mind) and our ship has been "debunked" - although no one could know how the 7th books ends - so now we're not a threat anymore. The Herons and Chocos I've seen on many fandom sites are still celebrating, typing "DELUSIONAL" in all caps to their heart's content. I congratulated them on their "victory", but because I didn't lose hope in H/Hr I was still berated to the point of frustration . Then when Karma comes back to, well, bite them in the arse with all these H/Hr HOLYMOLY!Pictures from GoF, they get defensive when we rejoice and don't hesitate to remind us what happens later on. What exactly does happen later on? Ron and Hermione fight, Hermione turns into a raving b***h, and Harry gets with Ginny? Rowling never said that H/Hr wasn't going to happen ever, so I still have hope.

((Note: The Herons and Chocos I am referring to are not ALL of them. Just the ones I've encountered who have called me names.))

-Jade

That's okay, I understand. Oh, and it wasn't just your post, it was a few others that generalized. I can understand why you said the things you say and I can see your point. But, thank you for the apologizes anyway. For your trouble I'll give you a whole pumpkin pie! ::Gives Harry85 a huge pumpkin pie::

The hostility, to me, is surprising. Fact is, when I get hate for my ship, I simply don't care. I've been alive 27 years, and if I cared too much about what other people thought of my ideas, I'd have been a pushover my whole life, because really, people *always* have something to say.

I do, however, get royally ticked when Herons and Chocolatiers come to this forum and say, "I admire you for your faith and determination!" Puleez. Spare me. Believe me when I say that I always--and I mean ALWAYS--think: "Well, don't get your panties in a twist. I'm not doing it for you, you silly t-w-a-t," when I read such posts here. Sorry to say, but I'm not going to go into those threads and say, "Oh, I'm so happy you Herons are so nice!" No. I'm going to shut up and pretend that Heron/Chocolatier doesn't exist.

I don't go over to their forums and tell them, "I admire you all for believing in Ron and Hermione!" If I did that, I'd add "... because really, I think you're all missing the bloody point of 'relationship'!" Why hold back, I say.

And then there's that *other* species that comes here and says, "Oh, please convince me that you're not all delusional!" Can it get worse than that? Those kinds of idiots really bug me. Convincing someone to join a ship... the idea. It's either you believe in it or you don't. If you don't, I've got news for you, pal: That's no big loss to us. I didn't choose this ship to convert wayward Herons. Our side isn't the light or dark side. It's just a side. Period. No jedis, no sith, no sh*t. It's a choice. You know you can make one on your own, yes?

I don't hate Herons. Most of my friends are Herons. And the only real hate I get for being a Harmonian happens over the internet. But I could care less about them. The best part about the internet is that they're one click away from obliviation.

It seems to me that a some of the non-H/Hr shippers immediately take a dislike to my shipping H/Hr because they strongly believe that our ship has been sunk. I mean, that it is at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean, alongside the disintergrating Titanic! They believe that because JKR has written H/G in HBP that it's going to stay that way. They believe that Harry and Ginny will reunite in book 7. Who is being delusional here? They also believe that it's R/Hr at the end of book 6 and will continue to be so in the final book. In reality, R/Hr STILL did not happen in HBP. Why they can't see this is beyond my comprehension. These non-H/Hr shippers also believe that what JKR says in her interviews is canon too. I have to take exception to that! I adamantly believe that ONLY what JKR writes down in her books is canon. Not what she says or evades to in her interviews. I really get hot under the collar about this. The non-H/Hr shippers are jumping at every little scrap that JKR throws at them during interviews. I think they want to be really convinced that their ships (R/Hr and H/G) are the ONLY ships. Deep down, I think that these non-H/Hr shippers are still concerned that perhaps - just maybe - JKR will sink their ships in book 7. They will never admit it, but I believe that some of them think that H/Hr will happen in the final book. We Harmonians are a threat to them. We were before HBP, and to some, we still are. This is why I think they dislike us so much. But, like many Harmonians, I don't care what anybody says about my shipping. I KNOW that it's the right ship. I KNOW that Harry and Hermione belong together!

I'm pleasantly surprised that someone had the courage to come out and say that without fear of being attacked by the 'peace between ships' activists on this forum. What really annoys me is when OBHWF shippers come here and try to argue for their ship. Why??? I don't need converting, I don't need the obvious anvils pointed out to me and I don't really want to have a "friendly debate" with diehard Herons (They have to be pretty diehard to come onto a H/Hr ship and challenge H/Hr shippers. Then again some of them say the reason they do that is because there aren't that many H/Hr shippers left on "neutral sites". I wonder why...). I ship Harmony out of preference, not ignorance and if I wanted to debate with OBHWF shippers, I'd go back to the CoS forum.

Another thing that annoys me is when people start screaming "DONT BASH JKR!!!" whenever anyone has the slightest criticism of HBP. She is human so she is not perfect and she is published author, which gives anyone the right to comment on their opinion of her work. Criticism is not bashing.

I don't hate OBHWF shippers. They have their opinion and they're entitled to it. Just as we have our opinions and we are d*mn well entitled to that just as much as they are. What I don't like is when OBHWF shippers try to gloat and impose their views. H/Hr may be over in canon and I've accepted that but I still prefer H/Hr anyday.

Jade your absolutely right, and you know what? i dont get it either. I mean why are we getting picked on you dont see anyone calling any other ship "Delusional" Well you know what i've given up trying to get respect out of them if weurn out to be right in the end then we'll have the last laugh...even if we are right i think we should keep the name Delusional as a symbol to what will lie in HP shipping forever.

Unfortunately people place others into cognitive categories with attaching labels. This isn't right or wrong, it just is. It's easier to place a group of people into a singular category, rather than categorize people individually. So with the good come the bad. What's also unfortunate is that negative labels/behaviors/words/etc. are more salient than positive ones. Hence "delusional" being thrown about as if it were Pee-Wee's word of the day. It's like a catchphrase that won't go away, much like Dave Chapelle's "I'm Rick James b*tch!"

As for character bashing, I think it's open for interpretation. What one person may call bashing, another may call it criticism, or even teasing. What one person may call Ginny-bashing, another may say it's a criticism of Ginny's lack of character development. As readers we should critique, criticize, and so forth characters and plot lines. Hell, I love Snape, but I've criticized his character before. It's just an acknowledgement that no character is perfect, no matter how much we may love (or even hate) him or her.

My mom finally read through OoTP and this was her first question: "Do Harry and Hermione get together in book 6?" I'm still debating whether to let her down gently or to prop up some hope in her before I hand over HBP for her to peruse. Hope's slowly winning...

~Random
"Permanence, perseverance and persistence in spite of all obstacles, discouragements, and impossibilities: It is this, that in all things distinguishes the strong soul from the weak." -Thomas Carlyle

Really, I think that some of it is our fault...

Don't look at me like that... Just listen, then throw whatever the hell you want to at me...

When I think about it, we do come across as at least slightly arrogant... we always claim to be right and interpret things the right way... that little bit of arrogance makes it easy for people to hate us...

The reason that little bit of arrogance makes us hated by so many is the fact that the only other major ship outnumbers us... there are more R/Hr's than H/Hr's out there... so, ssince the majority always wants to discredit the minority, they use that against us...

I don't know how much sense that made... ask me to elaborate if I confused you...

- Shady

Yeah, I think that's the main thing. The Harmony ship thinks its "better" than the Herons/Chocolatiers in terms of intellect.

It has to be infuriating.

Honestly, I *never* thought I was better than the Herons. They have their beliefs, I have mine. So I suppose that's why I get so annoyed when a Heron harrasses me/us. I'm like, "Geez, leave me ALONE. You don't see *me* bothering you, do you?" (Hence, I'm annoyed by Herons who come here trying to say they admire our determination. Makes me want to puke. Patronizing little twits...) I respect what they believe in, so I expect the same from them.

Shady: Haven't the Herons been arrogant as well? I don't think any ship is immune to arrogance; not every member may be so, but there are always exceptions.

AdamantEve: The "admiring our determination" is just another method of gloating, a wolf in sheep's clothing if you will?

Exactly. It's patronizing! Admire our determination? Are we supposed to celebrate and thank them for their admiration? I lived and shipped just fine without having to be admired by some Heron.

What I was saying is that they make our arrogance seem more obvious because they want to put us down... They outnumber us, so they have influence over more people and can make us seem a lot more arrogant than we really are...

That make more sense?

- Shady

First of all I would like to ask if there ever been a poll that shows how many people ship H/Hr, R/Hr and H/G? The other ships (let's face it) are more likely small in numbers. I always hear that Herons outnumber us. But, do we REALLY know?

As for the arrogance ... I have to say that the Herons and Chocos are not immune to it. I have posted on non-H/Hr websites, stating my shipping preference (and I wasn't being disrespectful) and they came at me like piranhas. You can't even argue reasonably with some of those Herons and Chocos.

I've never seen evidence to the contrary... but let's not get into a debate about this...

The thing is that it seems that they outnumber us, and if they don't, then a lot of us don't admit what we ship... but that's a different topic entirely...

I was just stating my opinion about that... you don't have to agree... I was just posting my opinion as to why that was... May I ask what your opinion as to why we get all the hate is?

- Shady

That may be true. "The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas." -Marx (Out of context I know...) And it is easier to be uninhibited when in large groups, due to anonymity (plus the medium of the Internet). Though I'd still love to know the breakdown of how many people belong to each ship (a part of me thinks that non-shippers would win, and I'd be totally fine with that).

A gallop poll could be helpful, but again, there's no way you could get a huge population of every kind of HP reader, and the numbers could be wayy skewed. Thank you STATISTICS professor.
No matter what, I've found that in most situations the easy always wins out in the end. And the easy is usually more influenced through directional inferences, such as hey if one person is seeing the R/Hr and I can see it why don't we make it our public statement, thus the idea propagates and you get more directed to that way of thinking.
I don't understand how I deviated from this set mode of thinking, but apparently there's a personality trait that makes certain individuals more vulnerable to preferring H/Hr over R/Hr (assuming that the individual can see both sides). There has to be a reason for the difference in opinions that is dramatically blatant between the two, but I still can't seem to figure it out. I don't believe it's education or IQ, but something more intuitive. Anyway, the fact that there are enough H/Hr supporters out there to warrant numerous sites and the fact that people keep popping our ship in interviews (cough), we probably have more numbers than we believe.


MODLY NOTE: This sparked a series of messages about making a statistical study of HP Shippers. I've moved those posts to the separate thread that shadowofvoldemort later created.

- gal-texter Jun2008

I believed in H/Hr just because i felt it , it seemed right to me at every stage.I chose it and heartily wished that it will happen ,then came around and started finding some reasons to support my faith.And i actually got many clues and proofs to support my thought. i believed into something and just wished for it , used my knowledge to support it,THATS IT.This is the way i deal with my thoughts and my faith.And if doesnt happen ,fine with me .

i am happy with myself ,then can anyone please tell me that why these other shippers are coming around and offering me condolences.Why are they acting like someone has died or we are mad people running around in our own world.this is the new habit of herons nowadays , they come over ,try and be sweet ,say we are great , great delusional people.
i love my ship and its my preference, mark it my preference, that is my own wish.I dont need any author or any interview to change the way i look at things.In any case if i m convinced that i m wrong i will accept it clearly At least i wont run around gloating ,making fun or hurting other people who dont agree with me.
lets hope things will happen in a nice way in the future.
lets have world peace
not so called shipping peace around

all i want is peace and HARMONY for the world
ANU

My opinion as to why we get all the hate? I believe it's because we are a stubborn and loyal lot. For every reason they say it isn't H/Hr, we give them valid reasons why it is. And, right from the pages of the HP books too! We even see evidence of H/Hr in HBP! It's all a matter of interpretation. Most Harmonians have remained true to our ship, no matter what JKR has said in interviews. This makes the Herons and Chocos crazy. IMO they think that because H/G happened in book 6, it will happen again in the final book. They also believe that R/Hr is strengthened in HBP and they will finally get together as a couple in book 7. Herons and Chocos don't understand why we don't see it their way. IMO, most Harmonians see that H/G happened in HBP, but we feel that they won't reunite in the final book. For various reasons, for which I will not discuss now. We also see that R/Hr STILL hasn't happened as of HBP, and most likely will NOT happen in book 7. Again, this drives the Herons and Chocos bonkers! They call us delusional. Quite frankly, I don't care. A lot of them do hate us and our ship, but I think that it's their loss. I believe in H/Hr, come what may. I love Harry and Hermione together. Always will!

Okay, that makes sense...

As with just about everything, the reason is simply a matter of opinion... I might not agree totally with your opinion, but I'll respect it... in fact, it makes a lot of sense, but I'm staying with my opinion...

- Shady



MOD NOTE: merged with
Why All the Hate to Harmonians?, A giant 'why' topic .
I think this thread has given plenty enough reasons though, so I'm locking it.
~Pen/gal-texter Jun 2008