Personally, I've seen enough cannon evidence to truly show that Harry and Hermione love each other dearly. I have also seen traces of Hermione showing signs that she has a crush on Harry, (constantly talking about him...girls tend to do that when they have a crush..) We've seen Harry being flirty with Hermione as well. But not really an awakening.
I also feel that the Jane Austen arguments are hugely in our favor. A H/Hr twist would be very Jane Austen esq, and JK said that every author would want to try and top Jane Austen. The other books on her book shelves seem to support the type of relationship H/Hr have, as opposed to the "bickering couple." I also think, that the fact that this is Harry's book, and therefore Harry's lovelife should be the one we care about, is big. If Ron and Hermione were to get together, we'd care about that relationship the most.
Hermione's "fanciable speech" at first made me sure that H/Hr was never going to happen. A girl does not say that to a guy that she really likes. However, there was a lot of things I missed the first time through. First of all, Harry's umbridge scars never got around Hogwarts. Meaning that Hermione finds them attractive, because she metioned them. That was either a mistake by JK, or a slip by Hermione...I'm hoping it's the latter. Oh yeah, and Harry getting warm over it..
The fact that everything in JK's books have been through subtle clues...why would shipping be any different? If you read between the lines, you can see the flirting, and the clues to the final pairing...
Oh yeah, and the fact that JK has been hinting at Ron's death since book 1 makes R/Hr a hard final pair..
What makes me uncomfortable, her interviews, I'm hoping she is just really careful with her words, and really does only talk about the present book. The fact that Hermione really did seem to be jealous, obviously there are some explanations...but she definitely seems to be jealous. (Well she actually seems downright crazy in this book)
I agree with you about Jane Austen. If JKR seeks to emulate her, that makes H/Hr much more likely.
What makes me uncomfortable is the alcemy arguements or similar arguements. They just seem to me to be reading too much into things and to be a little too abstract or even alegorical. I don't like reading liturature in that way because that type of reading seems to miss what the author intends while searching for secret meanings.
What makes me uncomfortable is the alcemy arguements or similar arguements. They just seem to me to be reading too much into things and to be a little too abstract or even alegorical. I don't like reading liturature in that way because that type of reading seems to miss what the author intends while searching for secret meanings.
I've always had a simple mind. I like running around these forums, reading theories and talking about them. I tend to believe one theory more than the other, but the truth is, the only thing I really subscribe to is the logic of the story, by itself.
I would never turn to Jane Austen, or Alchemy, or symbols, or all that, if I were asked what my reasons for believing in H+Hr were. All I'd say is that when writing a story, an author has to make things work according to the characters' motivations, the plot, and everything else that makes it plausible. To me, the H+Hr outcome fits into all the storytelling rules. To me, it's just as simple as that. I read something and I point out what's cheesy, what's silly, what doesn't fit in the scheme of things, what sounds like a fangurl dream, what should be the outcome according to one scene and another character, what could apply, and what I could expect.
Before I came to this site, I didn't know about Alchemy and all the symbols being ascribed to HP. I mean, I knew the basic stuff, like their names, the meanings, the literary references, but I didn't know much else, yet I believed in H+Hr. I don't freaking care if they rode a Hippogriff together, and that a Hippogriff symbolizes love. Honestly, what the hell is that? When it comes down to it, that means absolutely *nothing.* All I know is, they saved Sirius Black together, and that happened to necessitate the riding of a Hippogriff. It's sweet, but the symbolism won't hold up in court until we know it's H+Hr for sure. Know what I mean?
I knew about Jane Austen, and I loved her work WAY before JKR got the notion of telling the world that Austen was one of her favorite authors, but I never thought of patterning Austen's books against JKR. Again, while I do enjoy and like the discussions regarding parallels and such, I wouldn't say it holds up the H+Hr case. I can argue that HP will follow the pattern of Emma in favor of our ship until I'm blue in the face, but ultimately, Emma was written by Austen and HP was written by Rowling. They're two different people, and one of 'em is dead. Unless Austen's spirit rose from the grave and possesses Rowling, it's only still just a theory. And educated theory, but nothing to get excited about.
Alchemy... very intelligent. Very impressive. Very complicated. ::shrugs:: I still think the heavy hitters on this site know more about Alchemy than JKR does. The world has given her too much credit. That's what I think.
The only thing that scares me, actually, is JKR. That's all. She's all that makes me uncomfortable. She has her own mind. She's proven that she'll do as she pleases, and so far, what she pleases has disappointed me.
I would never turn to Jane Austen, or Alchemy, or symbols, or all that, if I were asked what my reasons for believing in H+Hr were. All I'd say is that when writing a story, an author has to make things work according to the characters' motivations, the plot, and everything else that makes it plausible. To me, the H+Hr outcome fits into all the storytelling rules. To me, it's just as simple as that. I read something and I point out what's cheesy, what's silly, what doesn't fit in the scheme of things, what sounds like a fangurl dream, what should be the outcome according to one scene and another character, what could apply, and what I could expect.
Before I came to this site, I didn't know about Alchemy and all the symbols being ascribed to HP. I mean, I knew the basic stuff, like their names, the meanings, the literary references, but I didn't know much else, yet I believed in H+Hr. I don't freaking care if they rode a Hippogriff together, and that a Hippogriff symbolizes love. Honestly, what the hell is that? When it comes down to it, that means absolutely *nothing.* All I know is, they saved Sirius Black together, and that happened to necessitate the riding of a Hippogriff. It's sweet, but the symbolism won't hold up in court until we know it's H+Hr for sure. Know what I mean?
I knew about Jane Austen, and I loved her work WAY before JKR got the notion of telling the world that Austen was one of her favorite authors, but I never thought of patterning Austen's books against JKR. Again, while I do enjoy and like the discussions regarding parallels and such, I wouldn't say it holds up the H+Hr case. I can argue that HP will follow the pattern of Emma in favor of our ship until I'm blue in the face, but ultimately, Emma was written by Austen and HP was written by Rowling. They're two different people, and one of 'em is dead. Unless Austen's spirit rose from the grave and possesses Rowling, it's only still just a theory. And educated theory, but nothing to get excited about.
Alchemy... very intelligent. Very impressive. Very complicated. ::shrugs:: I still think the heavy hitters on this site know more about Alchemy than JKR does. The world has given her too much credit. That's what I think.
The only thing that scares me, actually, is JKR. That's all. She's all that makes me uncomfortable. She has her own mind. She's proven that she'll do as she pleases, and so far, what she pleases has disappointed me.
So many theories, parallels, quotes, and in general evidence that cannot be shaken, according to us, (but not to JK's quill), the outcome just has to be HHr.
What worries me most has to do with the fact that it's not HHr, nor R/Hr, but the trio finding love with obscure third-party characters nobody knows about...something like Hermione/Gilderoy Lockhart...
I think that we can question what JK would and wouldn't write, cause book 7 is like a hot potato...it can land anywhere...
What worries me most has to do with the fact that it's not HHr, nor R/Hr, but the trio finding love with obscure third-party characters nobody knows about...something like Hermione/Gilderoy Lockhart...
I think that we can question what JK would and wouldn't write, cause book 7 is like a hot potato...it can land anywhere...
If we step back from the long essays and heavy-handed theories, we'll get the following conclusions:
The personalities of Rowling's characters promote H/Hr.
The build-up of Hermione supports her role as Harry's love interest.
Hermione's friendship is the only one that Harry has actively 'fought for.'
The symbology of the books reflects the bonds between Harry and Hermione.
The narrative of the books reflects Harry paying far more attention to Hermione than any other female.
From a technical standpoint --my strong point-- which includes the alchemy arguments, foreshadowing, character growth, plot progression, and the staggering of climaxes, H/Hr has been decided from book 1. How can I say this? Because Harry was exposed to Ginny as a fangirl, indicating that she's not really in the running, and he actively fought to win Hermione's friendship as the book progressed.
See, you get this in every RPG video game with a plot and most fantasy books: There are two major romance plots in every fantasy: either the romance is set in stone from the beginning, and the hero must rescue/prop up their love interest over the course of the story; or, the hero and their love are neutral or antagonistic to each other to begin with, and the hero must win their affection -- which then mutually builds as the two reciprocate for each other over the entire story, coming together near the end.
We're obviously dealing with the second variety here: Harry was initially cold to Hermione; worse than Ron -- you could tell that Ron was egging Hermione on for a fight, but Harry's brush-offs made me wonder just how damaged he was. Then, guided by his conscience, Harry initiates Hermione's rescue: He literally fights a monster to win her affection -- and it works brilliantly. Harry and Hermione then reciprocate for each other over the entire series, and ... we're finally getting the ending, and it screams H/Hr.
From an artistic standpoint, which I'll admit is my weaker side, Harry and Hermione have been cast as two halves of a whole, and have been created with many similarities to force readers to sympathize with them in a similar manner. This leads me to believe that the characters are meant to join; after all, if Harry gets accepted into a family like the Weasleys, that's cool; but to repeat that all over again with Hermione seems to be redundant and not useful to the storyline. Also, it bears noting that since Harry's opinion (and how it changes) is what's important in the books, it means that it's not Hermione's interactions with Ron that we should be watching, but her interactions with Harry; all the characters derive their purpose from how they benefit Harry along this series, and that puts Hermione solidly in the "reciprocating female" role that perpetuates an ending couple.
This is as good as I can do without falling into alchemy, which while I'm absolutely certain of it being correct, I will accept that the theory is so verbose that it seems more fragile than it really is. Rowling created this series so that children, and (in my opinion) anyone under the age of about 20 would have issues unravelling the characters and the plot; to those of us who have studied literature after high school, I claim that the ending and romances are transparent, and have been ever since book 1.
K, done now, taking my soap box with me.
The personalities of Rowling's characters promote H/Hr.
The build-up of Hermione supports her role as Harry's love interest.
Hermione's friendship is the only one that Harry has actively 'fought for.'
The symbology of the books reflects the bonds between Harry and Hermione.
The narrative of the books reflects Harry paying far more attention to Hermione than any other female.
From a technical standpoint --my strong point-- which includes the alchemy arguments, foreshadowing, character growth, plot progression, and the staggering of climaxes, H/Hr has been decided from book 1. How can I say this? Because Harry was exposed to Ginny as a fangirl, indicating that she's not really in the running, and he actively fought to win Hermione's friendship as the book progressed.
See, you get this in every RPG video game with a plot and most fantasy books: There are two major romance plots in every fantasy: either the romance is set in stone from the beginning, and the hero must rescue/prop up their love interest over the course of the story; or, the hero and their love are neutral or antagonistic to each other to begin with, and the hero must win their affection -- which then mutually builds as the two reciprocate for each other over the entire story, coming together near the end.
We're obviously dealing with the second variety here: Harry was initially cold to Hermione; worse than Ron -- you could tell that Ron was egging Hermione on for a fight, but Harry's brush-offs made me wonder just how damaged he was. Then, guided by his conscience, Harry initiates Hermione's rescue: He literally fights a monster to win her affection -- and it works brilliantly. Harry and Hermione then reciprocate for each other over the entire series, and ... we're finally getting the ending, and it screams H/Hr.
From an artistic standpoint, which I'll admit is my weaker side, Harry and Hermione have been cast as two halves of a whole, and have been created with many similarities to force readers to sympathize with them in a similar manner. This leads me to believe that the characters are meant to join; after all, if Harry gets accepted into a family like the Weasleys, that's cool; but to repeat that all over again with Hermione seems to be redundant and not useful to the storyline. Also, it bears noting that since Harry's opinion (and how it changes) is what's important in the books, it means that it's not Hermione's interactions with Ron that we should be watching, but her interactions with Harry; all the characters derive their purpose from how they benefit Harry along this series, and that puts Hermione solidly in the "reciprocating female" role that perpetuates an ending couple.
This is as good as I can do without falling into alchemy, which while I'm absolutely certain of it being correct, I will accept that the theory is so verbose that it seems more fragile than it really is. Rowling created this series so that children, and (in my opinion) anyone under the age of about 20 would have issues unravelling the characters and the plot; to those of us who have studied literature after high school, I claim that the ending and romances are transparent, and have been ever since book 1.
K, done now, taking my soap box with me.
The first thing that is very clear to me that we come now to the conclusion of Harry journey and see him in the last tome of the series becoming an adult and to make adult choice. It the end of his journey which had begun at the moment he first stepped into the Hogwarts Express several years ago. Being the journey of a boy he make two freindship Ron as his best mate and Hermione. Hermione had been a constant trough the whole story beside Macgonnagal and Lilly Potter. They are the most influencing female character I see there. Cho and Ginny are a crush and distraction form the war outside Hogwarts.
But McGonngal is over 60 so and she is the wise female teacher responsible for the Gryffindor house and there is of course Lilly but Harry´s mother is dead so even that her spirit is alive in Harry it all come down to Hermione.
Hermione is the only character who is truely worry about Harry well being and she can read him like a book. She is so atuned to him that might even know how Harry mind works. But she frankly put Harry wellbeing over her own: look at the broomstick argument in PoA. It may had cost her the only friendship she had at Hogwarts but she did it trying to save Harry.Logical she didnt do nothing wrong: every evidences were pointing that the broom was sent by Sirius as she did found this out later. But Hermione didnt have back then the information that Sirius was also Harry godfather and this changes everything. But the most important factor for me is that Harry realized that Hermione is doing for him from the beginning. His reaction to her are frankly quite clear.
And dont forgot the tons of essays, alchemical studies, Jane Auten etc that also point to this direction.
TOW If only the study of Literature was enough to make the older readership wiht a MA of literarure realized that it would be Harmony in the end then why is an great portion of adult readership still believing in Herons?.
But McGonngal is over 60 so and she is the wise female teacher responsible for the Gryffindor house and there is of course Lilly but Harry´s mother is dead so even that her spirit is alive in Harry it all come down to Hermione.
Hermione is the only character who is truely worry about Harry well being and she can read him like a book. She is so atuned to him that might even know how Harry mind works. But she frankly put Harry wellbeing over her own: look at the broomstick argument in PoA. It may had cost her the only friendship she had at Hogwarts but she did it trying to save Harry.Logical she didnt do nothing wrong: every evidences were pointing that the broom was sent by Sirius as she did found this out later. But Hermione didnt have back then the information that Sirius was also Harry godfather and this changes everything. But the most important factor for me is that Harry realized that Hermione is doing for him from the beginning. His reaction to her are frankly quite clear.
And dont forgot the tons of essays, alchemical studies, Jane Auten etc that also point to this direction.
TOW If only the study of Literature was enough to make the older readership wiht a MA of literarure realized that it would be Harmony in the end then why is an great portion of adult readership still believing in Herons?.
You know what really makes me nervous, it's the "Kiss" chapter (Sorry don't have my book with me)
My question is why did Hermione "Beam" at the kiss. It's makes me uneasy, no girl that likes (Romantic likes) a guy would be happy if said guy kissed another girl right in front of her. Had Hermione glared, stomped off, heck I'd be happy with no emotion at all, but it's not what happened. She seemed happy for Harry- not the actions of a girl in love with him.
If anyone has a theory on this please, I beg you let me know because of all cannon 'anvils' I've seen this one really discourages me.
My question is why did Hermione "Beam" at the kiss. It's makes me uneasy, no girl that likes (Romantic likes) a guy would be happy if said guy kissed another girl right in front of her. Had Hermione glared, stomped off, heck I'd be happy with no emotion at all, but it's not what happened. She seemed happy for Harry- not the actions of a girl in love with him.
If anyone has a theory on this please, I beg you let me know because of all cannon 'anvils' I've seen this one really discourages me.
@ Jeanas:
I hope you'll forgive my egotism for that statement, but anyone that I've talked with that was willing to consider the foreshadowing and symbology of the books in my university classes was unable to argue against the H/Hr pairing. I find that the R/Hr essays use very little symbological reference and cannot find repeating events to underline the connection from book to book. In short, R/Hr theories rely on the text not being deceptive at all, while the series as a whole has shown us that its text is very deceptive. You can't read the books properly without taking into consideration its symbology, repetition of events, and double meanings. All in all, H/Hr has a much stronger argument going for it, and I'd be very surprised that a plot analysis by anyone with a Masters in English would uncover a R/Hr plot. Even John Granger, who is the most well known person to publish material concerning Harry Potter, was pro-H/Hr, and simply chose to back off of shipping when confronted by R/Hr theorists.
@DarkGoddess2000:
We have two possibilities here: Either Hermione was truly happy for Harry, since Harry obviously was working towards this end; or Hermione is devastated, and does the only thing she could possibly do in fron of Harry. Personally, I'm more for the former -- if Harry's happy, so is Hermione. Remember that Hermione is very insecure in these books: I don't think she considers herself in the running for Harry, even if she wanted to be. Harry would have to make a move on her for her to begin to reciprocate.
I hope you'll forgive my egotism for that statement, but anyone that I've talked with that was willing to consider the foreshadowing and symbology of the books in my university classes was unable to argue against the H/Hr pairing. I find that the R/Hr essays use very little symbological reference and cannot find repeating events to underline the connection from book to book. In short, R/Hr theories rely on the text not being deceptive at all, while the series as a whole has shown us that its text is very deceptive. You can't read the books properly without taking into consideration its symbology, repetition of events, and double meanings. All in all, H/Hr has a much stronger argument going for it, and I'd be very surprised that a plot analysis by anyone with a Masters in English would uncover a R/Hr plot. Even John Granger, who is the most well known person to publish material concerning Harry Potter, was pro-H/Hr, and simply chose to back off of shipping when confronted by R/Hr theorists.
@DarkGoddess2000:
We have two possibilities here: Either Hermione was truly happy for Harry, since Harry obviously was working towards this end; or Hermione is devastated, and does the only thing she could possibly do in fron of Harry. Personally, I'm more for the former -- if Harry's happy, so is Hermione. Remember that Hermione is very insecure in these books: I don't think she considers herself in the running for Harry, even if she wanted to be. Harry would have to make a move on her for her to begin to reciprocate.
QUOTE(DarkGoddess2000 @ Feb 1 2007, 07:14 PM) 
You know what really makes me nervous, it's the "Kiss" chapter (Sorry don't have my book with me)
My question is why did Hermione "Beam" at the kiss. It's makes me uneasy, no girl that likes (Romantic likes) a guy would be happy if said guy kissed another girl right in front of her. Had Hermione glared, stomped off, heck I'd be happy with no emotion at all, but it's not what happened. She seemed happy for Harry- not the actions of a girl in love with him.
If anyone has a theory on this please, I beg you let me know because of all cannon 'anvils' I've seen this one really discourages me.
What you saw from Hermione when the H/G kiss went down was a false beam, just like the one she gave Parvati when talking about her upcoming date with Cormac. Also, reread every detail of Hermione's behavior after the kiss, and you will see she was definitely not happy about it, and had a moment totally out-of-character for her (rolling on the floor laughing at Ginny's tatoo jokes).
TOW
Thanks for answering. I just wondered because I got the normal impression that a lot of adults beside children are Herons and since I m not able to stomach their essay to show a possible relationship between Hr/R and added to the fact that it is really a while since I have read one so, I did asked you about. Uhm really interesting that no one in the seminar was able to come against H/Hr.
And about the "Kiss" scene I not really worrying there. Hermione was always able to hide her emotions well and the small episode of her beaming at Lavender showed us that not everything is as it seemed to be. Why would Rowling wrote this scene this way if not to show the reader that Hermione can very well hide her own feelings and emotions under a mask of Happiness?. Snape is doing the same with it sneering and glare.
Thanks for answering. I just wondered because I got the normal impression that a lot of adults beside children are Herons and since I m not able to stomach their essay to show a possible relationship between Hr/R and added to the fact that it is really a while since I have read one so, I did asked you about. Uhm really interesting that no one in the seminar was able to come against H/Hr.
And about the "Kiss" scene I not really worrying there. Hermione was always able to hide her emotions well and the small episode of her beaming at Lavender showed us that not everything is as it seemed to be. Why would Rowling wrote this scene this way if not to show the reader that Hermione can very well hide her own feelings and emotions under a mask of Happiness?. Snape is doing the same with it sneering and glare.
Jeanas
I've also noted that most of the R/Hr adult shippers that I've talked with, just push aside any symbolism etc. at all. Most of the time they say that it's just too much of a "children's book" to bother looking deeper. While I will agree it's written mainly as a "children's book", it does have it's deeper sides. To those who don't like to read in depth and only like the story for the story, hey, whatever floats your boat.
However, just so you know:
Flying Starts.(debut works of children's authors)
4,728 words
21 December 1998
Publishers Weekly
English
Copyright 1998 Gale Group Inc. All rights reserved.
Casting a spell over young minds.
By Anne Simpson FACE TO FACE with J K Rowling.
1,688 words
7 December 1998
The Herald
28
English
© 1998 SMG Newspapers Ltd Not Available for Re-dissemination.
Now, while she admits it to doing it for "world building" she also goes on to say that alchemy is the story's internal logic. AKA the interior sense of the story. Thus it should follow an alchemical pattern. She also admits that she believe at the time that much of her knowledge probably won't be worked into the books. This is after/during writing Book 3 and before Book 4.
As to whether alchemy points to one ship or in favor of another, that is niether here nor there.
Alchemy is about attaining enlightenment in some manner. It's the combination of thinking and feeling, and does not have to have any romantic sentiments.
Professor Lupin teaching Harry how to use Expecto Patronum is a combination of thinking and feeling. Lupin being tied to the moon via being a werewolf, and Harry learning to control his emotions to produce his patronus. This has no romantic sentiment at all, and yet it is a perfect example of a chemical wedding between thinking and feeling.
Now this has me thinking...
OT:
Patronus: is obviously a connection to patron, like in Patron Saint. And how appropriate is it that Harry's father's animagus form is Harry's Patronus form. After all Harry's dad's name is James, and St. James is the Patron Saint of Alchemists. This could even connect to someone's theory that JKR "saintified" Dumbledore (I read it on this forum somewhere), and I'll connect to someone else's theory of Harry's Patronus changing to a Phoenix in the next book (which is what flew off of Dumbledore's grave) Thereby it would mark Dumbledore as Harry's "Patron Saint" of sorts.
~Salamon2
I've also noted that most of the R/Hr adult shippers that I've talked with, just push aside any symbolism etc. at all. Most of the time they say that it's just too much of a "children's book" to bother looking deeper. While I will agree it's written mainly as a "children's book", it does have it's deeper sides. To those who don't like to read in depth and only like the story for the story, hey, whatever floats your boat.
However, just so you know:
QUOTE
Rowling, having delivered the third Harry Potter book to Bloomsbury
and now working on the fourth, says she didn't consider her possible
audience when she conceived the series. "What excited me was how much
I would enjoy writing [Harry Potter]. I never thought about writing
for children--children's books chose me."
and now working on the fourth, says she didn't consider her possible
audience when she conceived the series. "What excited me was how much
I would enjoy writing [Harry Potter]. I never thought about writing
for children--children's books chose me."
Flying Starts.(debut works of children's authors)
4,728 words
21 December 1998
Publishers Weekly
English
Copyright 1998 Gale Group Inc. All rights reserved.
QUOTE
"I've never wanted
to be a witch, but an alchemist, now that's a different matter. To
invent this wizard world, I've learned a ridiculous amount about
alchemy. Perhaps much of it I'll never use in the books, but I have to know in detail what magic can and cannot do in order to set the
parameters and establish the stories' internal logic."
to be a witch, but an alchemist, now that's a different matter. To
invent this wizard world, I've learned a ridiculous amount about
alchemy. Perhaps much of it I'll never use in the books, but I have to know in detail what magic can and cannot do in order to set the
parameters and establish the stories' internal logic."
Casting a spell over young minds.
By Anne Simpson FACE TO FACE with J K Rowling.
1,688 words
7 December 1998
The Herald
28
English
© 1998 SMG Newspapers Ltd Not Available for Re-dissemination.
Now, while she admits it to doing it for "world building" she also goes on to say that alchemy is the story's internal logic. AKA the interior sense of the story. Thus it should follow an alchemical pattern. She also admits that she believe at the time that much of her knowledge probably won't be worked into the books. This is after/during writing Book 3 and before Book 4.
As to whether alchemy points to one ship or in favor of another, that is niether here nor there.
Alchemy is about attaining enlightenment in some manner. It's the combination of thinking and feeling, and does not have to have any romantic sentiments.
Professor Lupin teaching Harry how to use Expecto Patronum is a combination of thinking and feeling. Lupin being tied to the moon via being a werewolf, and Harry learning to control his emotions to produce his patronus. This has no romantic sentiment at all, and yet it is a perfect example of a chemical wedding between thinking and feeling.
Now this has me thinking...
OT:
Patronus: is obviously a connection to patron, like in Patron Saint. And how appropriate is it that Harry's father's animagus form is Harry's Patronus form. After all Harry's dad's name is James, and St. James is the Patron Saint of Alchemists. This could even connect to someone's theory that JKR "saintified" Dumbledore (I read it on this forum somewhere), and I'll connect to someone else's theory of Harry's Patronus changing to a Phoenix in the next book (which is what flew off of Dumbledore's grave) Thereby it would mark Dumbledore as Harry's "Patron Saint" of sorts.
~Salamon2
I'm inclined to agree with the "St. Dumbledore" theory -- his apotheosis, if we follow the term on the topic.
Honestly, it makes me think of Obi-Wan, though: "If you strike me down, I will become far more powerful than you can ever imagine." It's not the first time (nor the last) that an alchemical epic uses death as a liberating force, rather than a restricting one.
Honestly, it makes me think of Obi-Wan, though: "If you strike me down, I will become far more powerful than you can ever imagine." It's not the first time (nor the last) that an alchemical epic uses death as a liberating force, rather than a restricting one.
Well, the Austen theory and alchemy and stuff.....it all seems very logical and very possible and yes, it does make me hopeful. But ultimately I base my hope on simpler stuff:
1. From a literary POV, it doesn't make sense for Harry, the hero, to end up with a secondary character while Ron, a sidekick, ends up with Hermione, who undoubtly is the most important female in the series. R/Hr getting together would without a doubt overshadow any relationship that Harry would have with someone and that does not make ANY sense. It is Harry's story. Full stop.
2. From what we've read so far, I think we can say that JK wants Harry to really love someone. And based on what we've witnessed between Bill/Fleur in HBP, we can safely assume that JK has a pretty clear idea of what love is. Fleur stood by Bill no matter what. Who stood by Harry when everyone else abandoned him? Hermione. Why would Jo slowly establish such a strong bond between H/Hr only to have them end up with other people? I can already hear the Herons shout, "Because love doesn't make sense!". Agreed, it doesn't. Except in literature, it has to, otherwise it's poor writing, to say the least. I cannot view Ginny as Harry's twu wuv when he doesn't even confide in her, when she doesn't even know him. Why would I as a reader who loves Harry, settle for anything less than someone who understands, trusts and supports him like noone else? I wouldn't. And if Jo loves Harry as much as she says she does, then I doubt she'd settle for anything less than Hermione, either.
1. From a literary POV, it doesn't make sense for Harry, the hero, to end up with a secondary character while Ron, a sidekick, ends up with Hermione, who undoubtly is the most important female in the series. R/Hr getting together would without a doubt overshadow any relationship that Harry would have with someone and that does not make ANY sense. It is Harry's story. Full stop.
2. From what we've read so far, I think we can say that JK wants Harry to really love someone. And based on what we've witnessed between Bill/Fleur in HBP, we can safely assume that JK has a pretty clear idea of what love is. Fleur stood by Bill no matter what. Who stood by Harry when everyone else abandoned him? Hermione. Why would Jo slowly establish such a strong bond between H/Hr only to have them end up with other people? I can already hear the Herons shout, "Because love doesn't make sense!". Agreed, it doesn't. Except in literature, it has to, otherwise it's poor writing, to say the least. I cannot view Ginny as Harry's twu wuv when he doesn't even confide in her, when she doesn't even know him. Why would I as a reader who loves Harry, settle for anything less than someone who understands, trusts and supports him like noone else? I wouldn't. And if Jo loves Harry as much as she says she does, then I doubt she'd settle for anything less than Hermione, either.
Another possibility Salamon2 for your St DD theory as TOW named it to come true is that Fawkes become Harry´s pet.
Having Fawkes as pet would slove Harry the problem of transportation out of dangerous place like cave or something. Fawkes would be able to transport them out.
Having Fawkes as pet would slove Harry the problem of transportation out of dangerous place like cave or something. Fawkes would be able to transport them out.
That's been a big expectation, really: That Fawkes find his way to Harry. It would be almost the same as if Dumbledore himself were perched on Harry's shoulder, and it makes sense that it would be this way.
I believe that DH will mirror the COS battle more than anything; that Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore will call Fawkes to his side, and grant him a tremendous advantge while searching for the Horcruxes; a couple Phoenix tears make the Hospital Wing obsolete, after all.
Also, of symbological importance, Fawked blinded the Basilisk, making it incapable of killing with its glance; This will likely be mirrored too, either by having Fawkes intercept an AK or two for Harry, or by having Fawkes run interference between Harry and Voldemort.
I think that Fawkes also underlines something that we're dancing around when it comes to Harry's victories at the end of each book, when "love" saves him: Harry is always on the defensive, and the being atacking him is subject to "divine retribution" for the act.
In SS/PS, Harry initially burned Quirrel when Quirrel tried to choke him, and Harry then latched on to prevent being cursed (His mother's love, from beyond the grave -- given that Fawkes is a symbol of Rebirth and Eternity, and hasn't been introduced yet, this represents him).
In COS, Harry set Gryffindor's sword against the Basilisk's charge, and the Basilisk dies in the attempt to attack Harry (Fawkes is responsible for the rescue).
In POA, Harry was nearly kissed, before he saved himself with his father's image (powerful symbolism here, and I recall having great fun discussing it with JBaker. Once again, we have a parent's love from beyond the grave assisting Harry, which strongly represents Fawkes).
In GOF, Harry was attacked with the AK, and his wand locked with Voldemort's, causing yet another byeond-the-grave event (Fawkes again is indirectly responsible for this turn of events).
In OOTP, we get the first look at what Fawkes can do with an AK curse (Fawkes is the real Death Eater, isn't he?
); once again, Harry is directly assualted by Voldemort, in this case attampting to possess Harry, and we have Harry's love for Sirius, another beyond-the-grave power, assisting Harry.
HBP is a little different, but is also not complete, as we're supposed to segue straight into DH. Fawkes was working overtime to "Steal the pain" of Dumbledore's death, and with Harry's reiteration of his loyalty to Dumbledore at the end of the book, it would come as a complete shock to me if Fawkes wasn't at Harry's side from quite early in the book.
I believe that DH will mirror the COS battle more than anything; that Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore will call Fawkes to his side, and grant him a tremendous advantge while searching for the Horcruxes; a couple Phoenix tears make the Hospital Wing obsolete, after all.
Also, of symbological importance, Fawked blinded the Basilisk, making it incapable of killing with its glance; This will likely be mirrored too, either by having Fawkes intercept an AK or two for Harry, or by having Fawkes run interference between Harry and Voldemort.
I think that Fawkes also underlines something that we're dancing around when it comes to Harry's victories at the end of each book, when "love" saves him: Harry is always on the defensive, and the being atacking him is subject to "divine retribution" for the act.
In SS/PS, Harry initially burned Quirrel when Quirrel tried to choke him, and Harry then latched on to prevent being cursed (His mother's love, from beyond the grave -- given that Fawkes is a symbol of Rebirth and Eternity, and hasn't been introduced yet, this represents him).
In COS, Harry set Gryffindor's sword against the Basilisk's charge, and the Basilisk dies in the attempt to attack Harry (Fawkes is responsible for the rescue).
In POA, Harry was nearly kissed, before he saved himself with his father's image (powerful symbolism here, and I recall having great fun discussing it with JBaker. Once again, we have a parent's love from beyond the grave assisting Harry, which strongly represents Fawkes).
In GOF, Harry was attacked with the AK, and his wand locked with Voldemort's, causing yet another byeond-the-grave event (Fawkes again is indirectly responsible for this turn of events).
In OOTP, we get the first look at what Fawkes can do with an AK curse (Fawkes is the real Death Eater, isn't he?
); once again, Harry is directly assualted by Voldemort, in this case attampting to possess Harry, and we have Harry's love for Sirius, another beyond-the-grave power, assisting Harry.HBP is a little different, but is also not complete, as we're supposed to segue straight into DH. Fawkes was working overtime to "Steal the pain" of Dumbledore's death, and with Harry's reiteration of his loyalty to Dumbledore at the end of the book, it would come as a complete shock to me if Fawkes wasn't at Harry's side from quite early in the book.
QUOTE(JK)
He might get a different pet at some point but I'm saying no more at this moment.
Fawkes? I'm inclined to think so!
Honestly, what I feel most confident about regarding H/Hr is the Emma argument and the fact that, to this day, JK still has not officially sunk Harry and Hermione. Also, the fact that the odd numbered books are to H/Hr's advantage.
What worries me the most is my own personal shipping luck. I honestly think I have the worst luck where shipping is involved. Plus, I'm worried that all of my years of faith in JK writing what would/will be my favorite romance story, Harry and Hermione starting off as strangers to close friends to love interest's, is all in vain. I'm not sure if my faith in her is wasted or not, and whether she really does intend for R/Hr and H/G to be the examples of "love" she wants to show millions of her readers; young one's at that. I just can't help wondering if maybe, to JK, Ron and Hermione are love, as is Harry and Ginny. I want to say I'm positive she see's neither are, both are very bad relationships and that Harry and Hermione is what's best, but I dunno. I can't say I'm positive; the complete opposite, actually.
What worries me the most is my own personal shipping luck. I honestly think I have the worst luck where shipping is involved. Plus, I'm worried that all of my years of faith in JK writing what would/will be my favorite romance story, Harry and Hermione starting off as strangers to close friends to love interest's, is all in vain. I'm not sure if my faith in her is wasted or not, and whether she really does intend for R/Hr and H/G to be the examples of "love" she wants to show millions of her readers; young one's at that. I just can't help wondering if maybe, to JK, Ron and Hermione are love, as is Harry and Ginny. I want to say I'm positive she see's neither are, both are very bad relationships and that Harry and Hermione is what's best, but I dunno. I can't say I'm positive; the complete opposite, actually.
QUOTE(xCarpeDiem @ Feb 5 2007, 10:27 PM)
Honestly, what I feel most confident about regarding H/Hr is the Emma argument and the fact that, to this day, JK still has not officially sunk Harry and Hermione. Also, the fact that the odd numbered books are to H/Hr's advantage.
What worries me the most is my own personal shipping luck. I honestly think I have the worst luck where shipping is involved. Plus, I'm worried that all of my years of faith in JK writing what would/will be my favorite romance story, Harry and Hermione starting off as strangers to close friends to love interest's, is all in vain. I'm not sure if my faith in her is wasted or not, and whether she really does intend for R/Hr and H/G to be the examples of "love" she wants to show millions of her readers; young one's at that. I just can't help wondering if maybe, to JK, Ron and Hermione are love, as is Harry and Ginny. I want to say I'm positive she see's neither are, both are very bad relationships and that Harry and Hermione is what's best, but I dunno. I can't say I'm positive; the complete opposite, actually.
I have mixed feelings where this topic is concerned. I mean, I really want to have faith in JKR because she is one of my favorite authors. I just really hope that she gets the 'love' angle right. But then again, that interview comes to mind and HBP where she forcefully puts Hermione and Ron as an implied to-be couple and rips Harry away from Hermione to slide into Ginny's arms and I have to wonder if this was a cover up or was it real.
It would be a great twist if she did put Hermione and Harry together after the HBP tango. She would certainly get praised over it. She would impress Jane Austen, I'm sure of it.
This is going to sound lame, but here goes. I like all the theories, I do. I enjoy reading about Alchemy, Tarot, Astrology, Emma, etc. BUT, for me, my strongest argument; what makes me believe is myself.
I'm an intelligent woman. I know love, I've seen love, I have love. I won't go too far into this cause it's gotten me in trouble before...
I am a mother (like JK) and could not fathom a mother force feeding R/Hr to the children of the world. She has the chance to show them that love is based off of friendship, devotion, loyalty, honesty, respect and self-sacrifice. There is no way she would go with "hey girls, yeah, he treats you like crap, you constantly fight, he puts you down, mocks you and doesn't appreciate you, but...if you hold out for 6 years, he'll magically - no pun intended - change and love you!!! YEA!!!"
And the fact that it's always been H/Hr in the back of my mind tells me. I didn't actively ship H/Hr until I found PK last Spring. I had never heard of shipping wars. I didn't know what "OBHWF" or "OTP" stood for and I couldn't have told you what what a "Harmonian" was. All I know, is that when we got the "supposed" R/Hr and H/G in HBP, I was so upset. My best friend called me asking "Isn't that great???" I literally just stood there shocked and said "no". It was pretty awful.
You never know what you've got til it's gone and I guess I never knew what a devoted H/Hr fan I was until it was threatened.
Of course, since then, I've laced up my boots and rolled up my sleeves to become the delusional, militant woman I am now.
BUT, I've been a Harmonian through and through from the start. Without hearing the IoD or participating in the CoS forums (shudders). Before I knew who Caina was and before I knew what a "ship" was.
Nobody talked me into it and nobody showed me harmony...except JK.
I'm an intelligent woman. I know love, I've seen love, I have love. I won't go too far into this cause it's gotten me in trouble before...
I am a mother (like JK) and could not fathom a mother force feeding R/Hr to the children of the world. She has the chance to show them that love is based off of friendship, devotion, loyalty, honesty, respect and self-sacrifice. There is no way she would go with "hey girls, yeah, he treats you like crap, you constantly fight, he puts you down, mocks you and doesn't appreciate you, but...if you hold out for 6 years, he'll magically - no pun intended - change and love you!!! YEA!!!"
And the fact that it's always been H/Hr in the back of my mind tells me. I didn't actively ship H/Hr until I found PK last Spring. I had never heard of shipping wars. I didn't know what "OBHWF" or "OTP" stood for and I couldn't have told you what what a "Harmonian" was. All I know, is that when we got the "supposed" R/Hr and H/G in HBP, I was so upset. My best friend called me asking "Isn't that great???" I literally just stood there shocked and said "no". It was pretty awful.
You never know what you've got til it's gone and I guess I never knew what a devoted H/Hr fan I was until it was threatened.
Of course, since then, I've laced up my boots and rolled up my sleeves to become the delusional, militant woman I am now.
BUT, I've been a Harmonian through and through from the start. Without hearing the IoD or participating in the CoS forums (shudders). Before I knew who Caina was and before I knew what a "ship" was.
Nobody talked me into it and nobody showed me harmony...except JK.
That was the BEST Accio. Loved every single word of your post. 
QUOTE(Accio Harry! @ Feb 6 2007, 07:10 AM)
This is going to sound lame, but here goes. I like all the theories, I do. I enjoy reading about Alchemy, Tarot, Astrology, Emma, etc. BUT, for me, my strongest argument; what makes me believe is myself.
I'm an intelligent woman. I know love, I've seen love, I have love. I won't go too far into this cause it's gotten me in trouble before...
I am a mother (like JK) and could not fathom a mother force feeding R/Hr to the children of the world. She has the chance to show them that love is based off of friendship, devotion, loyalty, honesty, respect and self-sacrifice. There is no way she would go with "hey girls, yeah, he treats you like crap, you constantly fight, he puts you down, mocks you and doesn't appreciate you, but...if you hold out for 6 years, he'll magically - no pun intended - change and love you!!! YEA!!!"
And the fact that it's always been H/Hr in the back of my mind tells me. I didn't actively ship H/Hr until I found PK last Spring. I had never heard of shipping wars. I didn't know what "OBHWF" or "OTP" stood for and I couldn't have told you what what a "Harmonian" was. All I know, is that when we got the "supposed" R/Hr and H/G in HBP, I was so upset. My best friend called me asking "Isn't that great???" I literally just stood there shocked and said "no". It was pretty awful.
You never know what you've got til it's gone and I guess I never knew what a devoted H/Hr fan I was until it was threatened.
Of course, since then, I've laced up my boots and rolled up my sleeves to become the delusional, militant woman I am now.
BUT, I've been a Harmonian through and through from the start. Without hearing the IoD or participating in the CoS forums (shudders). Before I knew who Caina was and before I knew what a "ship" was.
Nobody talked me into it and nobody showed me harmony...except JK.
Accio Harry! I decided to reply to your post by quoting all of it because what you expressed is exactly how I have always felt. I expecially like your last line, "Nobody talked me into it and nobody showed me harmony...except JK." Truer words have never been spoken.
I had been pessimestic about H/Hr happening since I heard that JK had finished book 7. I had been dreading July 21st. BUT NOW, after reading your post and, quite frankly, not going to non-Harmony websites, I am renewing my optimism.I have decided that from here on out I will not allow myself to dwell in self pity. Instead, I will join my fellow Harmonians
and never again lose sight of my faith in H/Hr! Thanks Accio Harry! for reminding me of my priorities!
H/Hr forever!
@ Accio Harry:
...and that's the entire point of our theories: That Harry and Hermione just "click" to the reader on a very deep level, such that it makes no sense whatsoever that they end up anywhere other than in each others' arms when all is said and done.
...and that's the entire point of our theories: That Harry and Hermione just "click" to the reader on a very deep level, such that it makes no sense whatsoever that they end up anywhere other than in each others' arms when all is said and done.
QUOTE(Accio Harry! @ Feb 6 2007, 07:10 AM)
This is going to sound lame, but here goes. I like all the theories, I do. I enjoy reading about Alchemy, Tarot, Astrology, Emma, etc. BUT, for me, my strongest argument; what makes me believe is myself.
I'm an intelligent woman. I know love, I've seen love, I have love. I won't go too far into this cause it's gotten me in trouble before...
I am a mother (like JK) and could not fathom a mother force feeding R/Hr to the children of the world. She has the chance to show them that love is based off of friendship, devotion, loyalty, honesty, respect and self-sacrifice. There is no way she would go with "hey girls, yeah, he treats you like crap, you constantly fight, he puts you down, mocks you and doesn't appreciate you, but...if you hold out for 6 years, he'll magically - no pun intended - change and love you!!! YEA!!!"
And the fact that it's always been H/Hr in the back of my mind tells me. I didn't actively ship H/Hr until I found PK last Spring. I had never heard of shipping wars. I didn't know what "OBHWF" or "OTP" stood for and I couldn't have told you what what a "Harmonian" was. All I know, is that when we got the "supposed" R/Hr and H/G in HBP, I was so upset. My best friend called me asking "Isn't that great???" I literally just stood there shocked and said "no". It was pretty awful.
You never know what you've got til it's gone and I guess I never knew what a devoted H/Hr fan I was until it was threatened.
Of course, since then, I've laced up my boots and rolled up my sleeves to become the delusional, militant woman I am now.
BUT, I've been a Harmonian through and through from the start. Without hearing the IoD or participating in the CoS forums (shudders). Before I knew who Caina was and before I knew what a "ship" was.
Nobody talked me into it and nobody showed me harmony...except JK.
I love you for this post, Malinda. QUOTE
BUT, for me, my strongest argument; what makes me believe is myself.
QUOTE
Nobody talked me into it and nobody showed me harmony...except JK.
You're the best, Malinda. I'm so glad we have someone like you on our delusional, militant ship.Miss Mady
Ummm...not to get all sappy on you guys, LOL...but...
I've just been talking (...er...whining) about being in a funk about posting to my fellow Harmonians on MSN (*wink* Mady). No particular reason, definitely not doubting my ship, but I've just been kinda detatched. You guys have put the wind back in my sails, so to speak.
YOU'RE THE BEST!!!
I've just been talking (...er...whining) about being in a funk about posting to my fellow Harmonians on MSN (*wink* Mady). No particular reason, definitely not doubting my ship, but I've just been kinda detatched. You guys have put the wind back in my sails, so to speak.
Thanks!!!
@ Accio Harry:
I certainly hope you don't feel detatched; perhaps we're simply not handing out enough compliments to the ladies these days. Here, for you:
I certainly hope you don't feel detatched; perhaps we're simply not handing out enough compliments to the ladies these days. Here, for you:
QUOTE
Ummm...not to get all sappy on you guys, LOL...but...
YOU'RE THE BEST!!!
I've just been talking (...er...whining) about being in a funk about posting to my fellow Harmonians on MSN (*wink* Mady). No particular reason, definitely not doubting my ship, but I've just been kinda detatched. You guys have put the wind back in my sails, so to speak.
Thanks!!!
YOU'RE THE BEST!!!
I've just been talking (...er...whining) about being in a funk about posting to my fellow Harmonians on MSN (*wink* Mady). No particular reason, definitely not doubting my ship, but I've just been kinda detatched. You guys have put the wind back in my sails, so to speak.
Thanks!!!
Aww, ::hugs:: We don't mind you "whining" (as you call it) to us.
Miss Mady
Everyone, I thought you all should know that Michelleypie, a R/Hr shipper at HPANA, has given a very polite warning for us concerning an article coming out this weekend:
Crew, man your battle stations!!
QUOTE(Michelleypie)
My sister [...] is a reporter for a NY newspaper and a R/Hr shipper, and she's writing a speculative article this week which she was advised to write controversially; so, needless to say, you guys aren't going to like what you see (she showed me the article in advance). You can tear apart the theory all you want; that's what you're here for, but as it's literally my sister who'll be writing it I'm just asking you politely as a favor not to attack HER, because she's family and if you guys wrote in the same request I'd comply!
Coming out this weekend...just a forewarning.
Coming out this weekend...just a forewarning.
Crew, man your battle stations!!
QUOTE(TerranOvermind @ Feb 8 2007, 03:02 PM)
Everyone, I thought you all should know that Michelleypie, a R/Hr shipper at HPANA, has given a very polite warning for us concerning an article coming out this weekend:
QUOTE(Michelleypie)
My sister [...] is a reporter for a NY newspaper and a R/Hr shipper, and she's writing a speculative article this week which she was advised to write controversially; so, needless to say, you guys aren't going to like what you see (she showed me the article in advance). You can tear apart the theory all you want; that's what you're here for, but as it's literally my sister who'll be writing it I'm just asking you politely as a favor not to attack HER, because she's family and if you guys wrote in the same request I'd comply!
Coming out this weekend...just a forewarning.
Coming out this weekend...just a forewarning.
Crew, man your battle stations!!
It means a great weekend for us on ship Harmony then
QUOTE(TerranOvermind @ Feb 8 2007, 03:02 PM)
Everyone, I thought you all should know that Michelleypie, a R/Hr shipper at HPANA, has given a very polite warning for us concerning an article coming out this weekend:
QUOTE(Michelleypie)
My sister [...] is a reporter for a NY newspaper and a R/Hr shipper, and she's writing a speculative article this week which she was advised to write controversially; so, needless to say, you guys aren't going to like what you see (she showed me the article in advance). You can tear apart the theory all you want; that's what you're here for, but as it's literally my sister who'll be writing it I'm just asking you politely as a favor not to attack HER, because she's family and if you guys wrote in the same request I'd comply!
Coming out this weekend...just a forewarning.
Coming out this weekend...just a forewarning.
Crew, man your battle stations!!
Well now, that was indeed polite. I'll have her over for dinner... with a slice of lemon. I heard Heron's tasty with flavored rice, too.
@ TerranOvermind:
Can you elaborate any on what you mean by her being advised to write controversially?
Can you elaborate any on what you mean by her being advised to write controversially?
QUOTE(gti88 @ Feb 1 2007, 10:52 AM)
What worries me most has to do with the fact that it's not HHr, nor R/Hr, but the trio finding love with obscure third-party characters nobody knows about...something like Hermione/Gilderoy Lockhart...
I think that we can question what JK would and wouldn't write, cause book 7 is like a hot potato...it can land anywhere...
Don't worry. It makes no sense for Rowling to write haphazardly. A work on the scale of HP requires an enourmous complex structure simply for housekeeping purposes.
QUOTE(DarkGoddess2000 @ Feb 1 2007, 01:14 PM)
You know what really makes me nervous, it's the "Kiss" chapter (Sorry don't have my book with me)
My question is why did Hermione "Beam" at the kiss. It's makes me uneasy, no girl that likes (Romantic likes) a guy would be happy if said guy kissed another girl right in front of her. Had Hermione glared, stomped off, heck I'd be happy with no emotion at all, but it's not what happened. She seemed happy for Harry- not the actions of a girl in love with him.
If anyone has a theory on this please, I beg you let me know because of all cannon 'anvils' I've seen this one really discourages me.
Hermione isn't going to be angry in public because it would lead to a very awkward moment. It would mean that Hermione would have played her hand.
QUOTE(The Obsidian Warlock @ Feb 1 2007, 01:27 PM)
I hope you'll forgive my egotism for that statement, but anyone that I've talked with that was willing to consider the foreshadowing and symbology of the books in my university classes was unable to argue against the H/Hr pairing.
I don't see why you have to feel sorry for saying that. I've always felt that H/Hr was the intelligent ship.
QUOTE(The Obsidian Warlock @ Feb 1 2007, 01:27 PM)
I find that the R/Hr essays use very little symbological reference and cannot find repeating events to underline the connection from book to book. In short, R/Hr theories rely on the text not being deceptive at all, while the series as a whole has shown us that its text is very deceptive.
Actually, R/Hr essays assume what suits them best. If it suits them to interpret the text as obvious, they will. If it suits them to think it is deceptive, (which is usually the case), they will.
QUOTE(The Obsidian Warlock @ Feb 1 2007, 01:27 PM)
You can't read the books properly without taking into consideration its symbology, repetition of events, and double meanings. All in all, H/Hr has a much stronger argument going for it, and I'd be very surprised that a plot analysis by anyone with a Masters in English would uncover a R/Hr plot. Even John Granger, who is the most well known person to publish material concerning Harry Potter, was pro-H/Hr, and simply chose to back off of shipping when confronted by R/Hr theorists.
I believe he did an analysis of the books and came up with R/Hr. His analysis was based on a faulty application of new age alchemy.
QUOTE(Salamon2 @ Feb 1 2007, 03:39 PM)
I've also noted that most of the R/Hr adult shippers that I've talked with, just push aside any symbolism etc. at all. Most of the time they say that it's just too much of a "children's book" to bother looking deeper. While I will agree it's written mainly as a "children's book", it does have it's deeper sides. To those who don't like to read in depth and only like the story for the story, hey, whatever floats your boat.
I never understood the whole "children's story" angle. All of the British children's stories I've seen were fairly complex.
QUOTE(Nora @ Feb 2 2007, 01:31 AM)
1. From a literary POV, it doesn't make sense for Harry, the hero, to end up with a secondary character while Ron, a sidekick, ends up with Hermione, who undoubtly is the most important female in the series. R/Hr getting together would without a doubt overshadow any relationship that Harry would have with someone and that does not make ANY sense. It is Harry's story. Full stop.
Exactly. I always hate the cries of "what about Ron?" What about him? Ron will deal with H/Hr in his own way. We're not reading HP to see Ron fall in love.
QUOTE(Nora @ Feb 2 2007, 01:31 AM)
2. From what we've read so far, I think we can say that JK wants Harry to really love someone. And based on what we've witnessed between Bill/Fleur in HBP, we can safely assume that JK has a pretty clear idea of what love is. Fleur stood by Bill no matter what. Who stood by Harry when everyone else abandoned him? Hermione. Why would Jo slowly establish such a strong bond between H/Hr only to have them end up with other people? I can already hear the Herons shout, "Because love doesn't make sense!". Agreed, it doesn't. Except in literature, it has to, otherwise it's poor writing, to say the least. I cannot view Ginny as Harry's twu wuv when he doesn't even confide in her, when she doesn't even know him. Why would I as a reader who loves Harry, settle for anything less than someone who understands, trusts and supports him like noone else? I wouldn't. And if Jo loves Harry as much as she says she does, then I doubt she'd settle for anything less than Hermione, either.
Actually, long term love is fairly easy to predict, but that's niether here nor there. You're absoultely right. Love in fiction has to make sense, and OBHWF doesn't make sense, no matter how important you think the romance is.
Well, guys and gals, they finally posted the article about book 7 theories in the NY Post. Just a little warning--it's quite a bit R/Hr friendly. Even so, we've been asked respectfully from the author's sister not to attack her directly, even though she attacks us. 
Anywho, here are the article's snippets about shipping:
Harry Potter will not hook up with Hermione. But his best friend will.
*snip*
Love with Hermione isn’t in the stars,but he will certainly hunt down those pesky Horcruxes.
*snip*
HERMIONE HEATS UP
She blushes when Ron declares his love. “I can’t believe you haven’t worked this one out,” J.K. Rowling says.
*snip*
RON SCORES BIG-TIME
Harry’s best buddy wins the love of enchanting Hermione. His jealous rages were a dead giveaway.
*snip*
Ron and Hermione will get together. I know Harry and Hermione shippers are still out there and in denial. They call all of Rowling's clear hints on this topic a red herring.
People: Harry and Hermione are not happening. I attended Rowling's reading at Radio City Music Hall and she said Hermione "will see herself entwined with another person whose identity you can probably guess."
On her web site she answered a question about who Hermione falls in love with this way, "I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy."
With all the blatantly obvious clues in the books about this - from Ron getting jealous over Viktor Krum to Hermione getting all blushy after Ron casually told her he loves her - it's time to face reality.
In various interviews, Rowling basically told us it is Ron and Hermione. Harry-Hermione fans can start the five stages of grief now.
As for Harry, I think he ends up with Ginny. Harry's a little wild and mischievous, like his dad. Ginny is desirable to guys and a defender of the less slick students such as Neville. Lily was the same way. It's fate.
Some people think Harry's going to hook up with Luna, which would be entertaining. But I don't think so.
For those interested, the whole article can be found here .
Anywho, here are the article's snippets about shipping:
Harry Potter will not hook up with Hermione. But his best friend will.
*snip*
Love with Hermione isn’t in the stars,but he will certainly hunt down those pesky Horcruxes.
*snip*
HERMIONE HEATS UP
She blushes when Ron declares his love. “I can’t believe you haven’t worked this one out,” J.K. Rowling says.
*snip*
RON SCORES BIG-TIME
Harry’s best buddy wins the love of enchanting Hermione. His jealous rages were a dead giveaway.
*snip*
Ron and Hermione will get together. I know Harry and Hermione shippers are still out there and in denial. They call all of Rowling's clear hints on this topic a red herring.
People: Harry and Hermione are not happening. I attended Rowling's reading at Radio City Music Hall and she said Hermione "will see herself entwined with another person whose identity you can probably guess."
On her web site she answered a question about who Hermione falls in love with this way, "I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy."
With all the blatantly obvious clues in the books about this - from Ron getting jealous over Viktor Krum to Hermione getting all blushy after Ron casually told her he loves her - it's time to face reality.
In various interviews, Rowling basically told us it is Ron and Hermione. Harry-Hermione fans can start the five stages of grief now.
As for Harry, I think he ends up with Ginny. Harry's a little wild and mischievous, like his dad. Ginny is desirable to guys and a defender of the less slick students such as Neville. Lily was the same way. It's fate.
Some people think Harry's going to hook up with Luna, which would be entertaining. But I don't think so.
For those interested, the whole article can be found here .
QUOTE
Well, guys and gals, they finally posted the article about book 7 theories in the NY Post. Just a little warning--it's quite a bit R/Hr friendly. Even so, we've been asked respectfully from the author's sister not to attack her directly, even though she attacks us.
Yes, yes, be nice to her, don't attack HER, attack the theory... blah blah blah... even if we do that, doesn't it count that SHE attacks US?
QUOTE
Ron and Hermione will get together. I know Harry and Hermione shippers are still out there and in denial. They call all of Rowling's clear hints on this topic a red herring.
People: Harry and Hermione are not happening. I attended Rowling's reading at Radio City Music Hall and she said Hermione "will see herself entwined with another person whose identity you can probably guess."
On her web site she answered a question about who Hermione falls in love with this way, "I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy."
With all the blatantly obvious clues in the books about this - from Ron getting jealous over Viktor Krum to Hermione getting all blushy after Ron casually told her he loves her - it's time to face reality.
In various interviews, Rowling basically told us it is Ron and Hermione. Harry-Hermione fans can start the five stages of grief now.
As for Harry, I think he ends up with Ginny. Harry's a little wild and mischievous, like his dad. Ginny is desirable to guys and a defender of the less slick students such as Neville. Lily was the same way. It's fate.
Some people think Harry's going to hook up with Luna, which would be entertaining. But I don't think so.
People: Harry and Hermione are not happening. I attended Rowling's reading at Radio City Music Hall and she said Hermione "will see herself entwined with another person whose identity you can probably guess."
On her web site she answered a question about who Hermione falls in love with this way, "I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy."
With all the blatantly obvious clues in the books about this - from Ron getting jealous over Viktor Krum to Hermione getting all blushy after Ron casually told her he loves her - it's time to face reality.
In various interviews, Rowling basically told us it is Ron and Hermione. Harry-Hermione fans can start the five stages of grief now.
As for Harry, I think he ends up with Ginny. Harry's a little wild and mischievous, like his dad. Ginny is desirable to guys and a defender of the less slick students such as Neville. Lily was the same way. It's fate.
Some people think Harry's going to hook up with Luna, which would be entertaining. But I don't think so.
I also think the writer said to go through the "five stages of grief". Hmm, she seems quite sure of R/Hr happening.
Miss Mady
Article from NY Post link and she has a Blog.
I am sorry, but I laughed through most of it because it is nothing we have not heard before from other places. I guess it is for the casual fan who happens to read that paper. I can get better theories from PK, HF, and LiveJournal...and better written too.
I am sorry, but I laughed through most of it because it is nothing we have not heard before from other places. I guess it is for the casual fan who happens to read that paper. I can get better theories from PK, HF, and LiveJournal...and better written too.
QUOTE
I am sorry, but I laughed through most of it because it is nothing we have not heard before from other places. I guess it is for the casual fan who happens to read that paper. I can get better theories from PK, HF, and LiveJournal...and better written too.
I agree, the essay was, to me, kinda random. I was lost and confused by it because it couldn't keep track. But I disagreed with it strongly, not only on the shipping but on some other things as well.
Also it saddens me greatly that it so blantenly attacked us, it's like fuel to the fire. She claimed to be 27 but she acted like a child when she said stated those things about us. I though people could be more mature. But she has the right to say what she wants. I'm not even angry, just a little disappointed.
But this part really got to me:
QUOTE
We love to share our theories, which are complex to an almost disturbing level, argue and bond. We crave every bit of information leaked to us. We analyze every syllable Rowling utters in interviews or writes on her site.
*snip*
QUOTE
Nothing gets by us.
Don't we do that too?
QUOTE
We love to share our theories, which are complex to an almost disturbing level, argue and bond. We crave every bit of information leaked to us. We analyze every syllable Rowling utters in interviews or writes on her site.
QUOTE
Nothing gets by us.
:scratches head: :quirks eyebrow* Isn't that us?
Miss Mady
QUOTE
QUOTE
We love to share our theories, which are complex to an almost disturbing level, argue and bond. We crave every bit of information leaked to us. We analyze every syllable Rowling utters in interviews or writes on her site.
Nothing gets by us.
:scratches head: :quirks eyebrow* Isn't that us?
Thats what I thought too, but I guess the person who wrote the essey hasn't been to Portkey or even talked to a Harmony.
QUOTE
Thats what I thought too, but I guess the person who wrote the essey hasn't been to Portkey or even talked to a Harmony.
And she's says she's "obsessed".
Miss Mady
Well, it is what it is, and I am confident in my analysis so far; many reviewers will be eating their words (or criticizing Rowling) when DH is done, but we'll be celebrating.
I think that pretty much every post above has covered all the best arguments for H/Hr.
I'll add my two cents with two quotes from JKR that I read years ago, and which sort of nailed down H/Hr for me. Before I give the quotes, let me first say this:
I believe H/Hr was set in stone during the break-up scene.
The way JKR told us in canon that Lily could have chosen to be spared, but that instead she chose to sacrifice herself to save Harry is what I believe she expects from anybody that has a deep love for someone. Lily stood by her family, the ones she loved, no matter what.
During the break up scene, Ginny could have chosen Lily's path, yet she chose to step aside and leave Harry alone to continue in his journey. Granted, it was what Harry wanted, but I bet that Lily and James didn't ask that from each other when they went into hiding. They were in it together, to protect Harry. I also bet that if Harry had been older and been able to ask the same to his parents, they'd have refused to leave him alone.
I liked it when JKR wrote Ginny saying words such as "what if I don't care" or similar, I'm paraphrasing here. I take that as a Ginny knowing she had a choice other than the one Harry was telling her to follow. And she chose to not stand by his side. (In all honesty, she's a grounded 15 year old girl here, choosing to not get in trouble for a two/three-week boyfriend that was ditching her,
... but I digress.)
These are the quotes that I was talking about above, and that might help understand what JKR is writing, and why:
She's said that Hermione's character is based on herself, and that a lot of Harry's is also based on her persona. Then look at the bolded part in the above quotes. I believe she's making Hermione and Harry go through her own mistakes, too. She'll wise them up in the last book,
EDIT: I forgot to say what makes me uncomfortable about H/Hr's arguments...
Nothing, in all honesty. Admittedly, I do feel a bit off in the back of my mind when I think that I might have over-analysed a simple text, thus misinterpreted JKR's intentions.
But then, that'll be only a canon disappointment, because up to book 6 H/Hr still looks good to me. So what if it doesn't end like I want? H/Hr were written beautifully, imo, and I can continue enjoying them in fanfics,
I'll add my two cents with two quotes from JKR that I read years ago, and which sort of nailed down H/Hr for me. Before I give the quotes, let me first say this:
I believe H/Hr was set in stone during the break-up scene.
The way JKR told us in canon that Lily could have chosen to be spared, but that instead she chose to sacrifice herself to save Harry is what I believe she expects from anybody that has a deep love for someone. Lily stood by her family, the ones she loved, no matter what.
During the break up scene, Ginny could have chosen Lily's path, yet she chose to step aside and leave Harry alone to continue in his journey. Granted, it was what Harry wanted, but I bet that Lily and James didn't ask that from each other when they went into hiding. They were in it together, to protect Harry. I also bet that if Harry had been older and been able to ask the same to his parents, they'd have refused to leave him alone.
I liked it when JKR wrote Ginny saying words such as "what if I don't care" or similar, I'm paraphrasing here. I take that as a Ginny knowing she had a choice other than the one Harry was telling her to follow. And she chose to not stand by his side. (In all honesty, she's a grounded 15 year old girl here, choosing to not get in trouble for a two/three-week boyfriend that was ditching her,
... but I digress.)These are the quotes that I was talking about above, and that might help understand what JKR is writing, and why:
QUOTE
Her heroine is the writer Jessica Mitford. She remembers going to visit her great aunt Ivy in Somerset when she was 14, and being told about this amazing woman. "And she said, 'You know what she did, Jo, she bought a camera on her father's account and then went travelling.'" Young Joanne thought that was wonderful. Later, she discovered that Mitford was also a civil-rights activist who had suffered more than her share of tragedy. "She had a total lack of self-pity. And she lost three children through war, which is the worst thing that could happen."
QUOTE
Rowling became a single parent when her marriage to Portuguese television journalist Jorge Arantes fell apart shortly after the birth of her daughter Jessica. "It was my Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee moment," she jokes. "It is the most humiliating thing, actually: you're supposed to have your relationship disaster in your teens, aren't you - and then wise up?"
(snip)
Rowling named her daughter after Jessica Mitford, sister of Nancy, author and avowed communist, whose autobiography Rowling read as a teenager. "Basically, [Mitford] had every single possible component you could want as a 13-year-old leftwinger."
Rowling looks an unlikely rebel. She was head girl of her comprehensive school in Chepstow - but she was the sort, she says, who got "caught smoking at bus stops with boys in leather jackets".
(snip)
Rowling named her daughter after Jessica Mitford, sister of Nancy, author and avowed communist, whose autobiography Rowling read as a teenager. "Basically, [Mitford] had every single possible component you could want as a 13-year-old leftwinger."
Rowling looks an unlikely rebel. She was head girl of her comprehensive school in Chepstow - but she was the sort, she says, who got "caught smoking at bus stops with boys in leather jackets".
She's said that Hermione's character is based on herself, and that a lot of Harry's is also based on her persona. Then look at the bolded part in the above quotes. I believe she's making Hermione and Harry go through her own mistakes, too. She'll wise them up in the last book,
EDIT: I forgot to say what makes me uncomfortable about H/Hr's arguments...
Nothing, in all honesty. Admittedly, I do feel a bit off in the back of my mind when I think that I might have over-analysed a simple text, thus misinterpreted JKR's intentions.
But then, that'll be only a canon disappointment, because up to book 6 H/Hr still looks good to me. So what if it doesn't end like I want? H/Hr were written beautifully, imo, and I can continue enjoying them in fanfics,
MOD NOTE
I have AK'd the original post and all the replies, as it brought nothing to the topic and was against the rules of the forum.
Adam.
I have AK'd the original post and all the replies, as it brought nothing to the topic and was against the rules of the forum.
Adam.
As for the NY Post article, I've read it too, and this is nothing new; it's like a summary of the common arguments in the shipping discussions. Nothing I haven't already read a lot of times, and she conveniently forgets to mention that at the end of HBP, nothing says that R/Hr are together (he consolates her at DD's funeral! Please! Nothing romantic there), and that H/G have broken up, with so few protestations from Ginny. And she brings up all the same old JKR quotes, as they always do.
As for our arguments, I especially like those who are simply facts from canon, and I think there are a lot. True, most of them can be interpreted at just great friendship, but put them together and it's not so obvious. It's far from over.
I had fun with symbolism, and things like alchemy for example, but I was not sure which importance to give to those things. Recently I read that JKR said that she has read a lot of alchemy to write the books, so she does know that stuff; but it's still a little tricky; I liked the alchemical essays I've read here, but those are subjects that highly depend on interpretation.
What disturbs me is JKR's attitude towards us; sometimes, it's almost hostility. I can't make my mind on that; does she hate the idea of H/Hr or does she hate that she won't be surprising all her readership??
As for our arguments, I especially like those who are simply facts from canon, and I think there are a lot. True, most of them can be interpreted at just great friendship, but put them together and it's not so obvious. It's far from over.
I had fun with symbolism, and things like alchemy for example, but I was not sure which importance to give to those things. Recently I read that JKR said that she has read a lot of alchemy to write the books, so she does know that stuff; but it's still a little tricky; I liked the alchemical essays I've read here, but those are subjects that highly depend on interpretation.
What disturbs me is JKR's attitude towards us; sometimes, it's almost hostility. I can't make my mind on that; does she hate the idea of H/Hr or does she hate that she won't be surprising all her readership??
QUOTE(blueangel @ Mar 3 2007, 01:53 PM)
What disturbs me is JKR's attitude towards us; sometimes, it's almost hostility. I can't make my mind on that; does she hate the idea of H/Hr or does she hate that she won't be surprising all her readership??
Actually, I think that her bad attitude towards us could be encouraging. Really. If you think about it, when she said that not-so-clear "they are still out there, get over it" phrase in the NYC interview, she could have been really mad at some of us for not giving up on H/Hr, her 'boom' and final pairing, the one she's been sweating blood for the past ten years or more,
In other words, we put her in a position which frustrates her: she cannot outrightly sink H/Hr like she did with Neville/Luna and Draco/Hermione, so in order to discourage us she has to pull more wool over the rest of the shippers' s eyes and make us look bad in the meantime. And after all those efforts, we still support H/Hr... No wonder she doesn't like us,
I don't think that she'd be that dismissive (vicious to some) to H/Hr if she ends the series with R/Hr and H/G. What's so wrong about H/Hr, even if it doesn't turn out canon? It's not like D/Hermione, after all. So, yes, I think there's a hidden message in her attitude.
QUOTE(blueangel @ Mar 3 2007, 02:53 PM)
What disturbs me is JKR's attitude towards us; sometimes, it's almost hostility. I can't make my mind on that; does she hate the idea of H/Hr or does she hate that she won't be surprising all her readership??
I think she's not hostile to us, persay. If she's really going down the OBHWF route, then I think she's more frustrated with us not giving up on H/Hr and not shipping R/Hr and H/G.
QUOTE(templar1112002 @ March 3, 2007, 3:11 PM)
In other words, we put her in a position which frustrates her: she cannot outrightly sink H/Hr like she did with Neville/Luna and Draco/Hermione, so in order to discourage us she has to pull more wool over the rest of the shippers' s eyes and make us look bad in the meantime. And after all those efforts, we still support H/Hr... No wonder she doesn't like us,
We do have quite a big following, don't we? I don't like the thought that JKR's trying to make us look bad to the rest of the shippers. But you do have this right: she can't debunk us as easily as N/L and D/Hr.
We're not giving up.
Miss Mady
QUOTE(Miss Mady @ Mar 3 2007, 08:31 PM)
QUOTE(blueangel @ Mar 3 2007, 02:53 PM)
What disturbs me is JKR's attitude towards us; sometimes, it's almost hostility. I can't make my mind on that; does she hate the idea of H/Hr or does she hate that she won't be surprising all her readership??
I think she's not hostile to us, persay. If she's really going down the OBHWF route, then I think she's more frustrated with us not giving up on H/Hr and not shipping R/Hr and H/G.
QUOTE(templar1112002 @ March 3, 2007, 3:11 PM)
In other words, we put her in a position which frustrates her: she cannot outrightly sink H/Hr like she did with Neville/Luna and Draco/Hermione, so in order to discourage us she has to pull more wool over the rest of the shippers' s eyes and make us look bad in the meantime. And after all those efforts, we still support H/Hr... No wonder she doesn't like us,
We do have quite a big following, don't we? I don't like the thought that JKR's trying to make us look bad to the rest of the shippers. But you do have this right: she can't debunk us as easily as N/L and D/Hr.
We're not giving up.
Miss Mady
I agree...we're as tough as nails
*post number 80 001
*
We're the tigers of fandom! Wait...does that mean we're now the HMS Tiger? Oh, well. I do agree that she can't directly sink us, and that's what makes the R/Hr shippers madder than anything. They're convinced we're through, but can't directly hit us because it hasn't been sunk on JKR's website. So, sail on!
Oh, well. I do agree that she can't directly sink us, and that's what makes the R/Hr shippers madder than anything. They're convinced we're through, but can't directly hit us because it hasn't been sunk on JKR's website. So, sail on!
It's like others have said..
If there is no more arguments, and she clearly did sink Harmony...it would have been on her sight. It wasn't thus the battle clearly isn't over.
If there is no more arguments, and she clearly did sink Harmony...it would have been on her sight. It wasn't thus the battle clearly isn't over.
QUOTE(templar1112002)
In other words, we put her in a position which frustrates her: she cannot outrightly sink H/Hr like she did with Neville/Luna and Draco/Hermione, so in order to discourage us she has to pull more wool over the rest of the shippers' s eyes and make us look bad in the meantime. And after all those efforts, we still support H/Hr... No wonder she doesn't like us, smile.gif
I share this opinion; this is what I like to tell myself. It would have been so easy for her to state clearly, on her site, that H/Hr would not happen, or to do it right after the IoD, which she knows that quite everybody has read. Maybe she feels that she did do it in the IoD, though. But her answers remain as confusing as ever; apparently, she does seem to sink us, but not if you look at it in a deeper level. I won't start again on this; the IoD has been discussed a lot already.
I certainly may be wrong, but I choose to take this same point of view.
Thanks everybody for sharing your feelings on that.
QUOTE(blueangel @ Mar 4 2007, 12:31 PM)
QUOTE(templar1112002)
In other words, we put her in a position which frustrates her: she cannot outrightly sink H/Hr like she did with Neville/Luna and Draco/Hermione, so in order to discourage us she has to pull more wool over the rest of the shippers' s eyes and make us look bad in the meantime. And after all those efforts, we still support H/Hr... No wonder she doesn't like us, smile.gif
I share this opinion; this is what I like to tell myself. It would have been so easy for her to state clearly, on her site, that H/Hr would not happen, or to do it right after the IoD, which she knows that quite everybody has read. Maybe she feels that she did do it in the IoD, though. But her answers remain as confusing as ever; apparently, she does seem to sink us, but not if you look at it in a deeper level. I won't start again on this; the IoD has been discussed a lot already.
Not only that, but the fact that she is the one who keeps bringing up the shipping thing in several different public settings just reinforces this viewpoint. Yeah, she may be full of it, but what other choice does she have?
QUOTE(Nymphe @ Mar 4 2007, 11:59 AM)
QUOTE(blueangel @ Mar 4 2007, 12:31 PM)
QUOTE(templar1112002)
In other words, we put her in a position which frustrates her: she cannot outrightly sink H/Hr like she did with Neville/Luna and Draco/Hermione, so in order to discourage us she has to pull more wool over the rest of the shippers' s eyes and make us look bad in the meantime. And after all those efforts, we still support H/Hr... No wonder she doesn't like us, smile.gif
I share this opinion; this is what I like to tell myself. It would have been so easy for her to state clearly, on her site, that H/Hr would not happen, or to do it right after the IoD, which she knows that quite everybody has read. Maybe she feels that she did do it in the IoD, though. But her answers remain as confusing as ever; apparently, she does seem to sink us, but not if you look at it in a deeper level. I won't start again on this; the IoD has been discussed a lot already.
Not only that, but the fact that she is the one who keeps bringing up the shipping thing in several different public settings just reinforces this viewpoint. Yeah, she may be full of it, but what other choice does she have?
I think one of the most confusing points about that is that she keeps bringing up the shipping, though she keep claiming it's not a large part of the book. It's a big deal because she made it a big deal, and now she's sending mixed signals. It's enough to make a shipper go mad.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.