Thank you, thankyou for this snippet of hope. I am really hanging by a thread sometimes. It's my fault, too for torturing myself with reading other essays disproving H/Hr. I just want to know if I was missing something and why I am not shipping H/G or R/Hr. *sigh*

I re-read HBP already and I don't think I can bring myself to read it again knowing the outcome will be the same.

But, your theories also sound so right...and it supports what I believe love to be. I am just really sad that we have to wait for so long to find out what is real in this Harry Potter universe. Hehe.

Oh, and I read this in JKR's website:

Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?

I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy. JKR

*sigh* :sad:

Anyway, I will look for those moments that FALSE-SIGNS mentioned. Thanks, and keep it coming. It's a long way to go to book 7!

Bingo. Harry's subconscious has been overflowing with Hermione at least since GOF. By the point in OotP when it became apparent that Hermione was "the voice in Harry's head" (his conscience, as it were), that some of his best memories involved her, that he looked to see where she was sitting in the History of Magic OWL exam, but didn't notice where Ron was -- well, it seemed clear to me that Hermione meant more to Harry than just his best friend. I'm not a psychologist, but I wonder what any HP readers who are psychologists think about that. How can anyone be in someone's thoughts as much as Hermione is in Harry's but not be the most important person in his life? Inquiring minds (like mine) want to know.

Resident psychology major here! I am not a liscenced psychologist, but from what I have learned, the person who is most important to you is the person who's opinion matters the most to you, and who is instinctively most in your thoughts. Remember in HBP when Ron thought Malfoy was just "showing off for Parkinson?" Harry went immediately to Hermione because he needed her to agree with him. Ron and Harry have a strong friendship, but here again we see Harry's yearning to have someone agree with him who is on the same wavelength. Hermione is like Harry's partner in solving mysteries, and they often work out certain mysteries together.

Regarding the times in HBP when Hermione did not agree with Harry, namely about the potions book and about Malfoy's true mission, Harry gets annoyed. He is living up to his book five personality here, because he has a stubborn streak and he HATES it when his perceptions prove wrong--probably because it reminds him of the Sirius blunder he made in Book 5.

Hermione is constantly in Harry's thoughts, even when she is not physically there. Either it is Crookshanks, or something about House Elves, or muggle parentage, or books, or brillance...but something usually reminds Harry of Hermione, even when Harry is with other girls like Ginny or Cho. Even when Harry is at the Burrow with Ron, he essentially knows exactly what she will say, and holds virtually an entire conversation with her in his head. Hermione is also the very first person Harry talks to when he comes back from Christmas, and stays with her all evening while Ron is off with Lavender and Ginny is off with Dean. I find it very good news for our ship that Harry doesn't even start to think about Ginny in a romantic way until after the first Herbology class of the term, in which he witnesses Ron and Hermione having what he percieves to be a potentially romantic exchange. And he isn't happy about it. Go Pumpkin Pie!!

Miss_Harmony - a great great statement! So basicly if R/Hr doesn't ocur then H/Hr should, and Ginny shouldn't be a problem since Harry is only with her because his feelings were mixed up, after seeing R/Hr.... Hurray!

I was just thinking. Why would being brilliant in potions be so important to Harry all of a sudden that he'd put such a strain on his relationship with Hermione and feel justified in being a cheater to do it? Why would catching Malfoy be so important to Harry? Why is winning in Quidditch so important to Harry? Look at these scenes in HBP:

(HBP US pg. 376)

Harry knows it's all an illusion - his brilliance. But he really wants to be considered brilliant. Then look at this part (US pg. 379) bolding mine:
"Before either of them could express their fury that Harry had come top of the class by not doing any work, however, the bell rang."
All along Harry is aware that he's cheating. So whatever gripe Hermione has about his cheating is accurate as Harry, himself, knows he's cheating.

Between these two events, however, is Harry watching Hermione work and being annoyed with her smugness and seeing her actually doing what was necessary to earn her grade. (US pg. 376/7) bolding mine:
"Hermione's expression could not have been any smugger; she had loathed being outperformed in every Potion's class. She was now decanting the mysteriously separated ingredients of her poison into ten different cystal phials. More to avoid watching this irritating sight than anything else, Harry bent over the Half Blood Prince's book and turned a few pages with unnecessary force.

Harry and Hermione are in a serious competition here. And it's clear from the text that Harry is extremely annoyed with the fact that his brilliance is an illusion, that Hermione knows her stuff and it bothers him that he's not going to win.

(US pg. 520):
"and nobody, Harry thought, would ever let him forget that it had been he who had captained Gryffindor to their first bottom-of-the-table defeat in two centuries."

Maybe the reason for Harry's personality makeover in year 6 is because he knows that he's responsible for the destruction of Voldemort and saving the rest of the wizarding world. That it's all on his shoulders. How can a person expect to be able to do that when all they've ever felt about themselves is that they were just "average". We've seen Harry attribute his other successes to outside factors and not is own talent (which he's reminded by Snape alot that he hasn't any). Harry is serioulsy lacking the confidence in himself to get this job done. He's striving to be respected (he suddenly doesn't mind being popular and well-thought of) at any cost. He's striving for a false facade of competence, intelligence, and ability.

Hermione's attitude over the potion's book is a major crack in that facade. She's a constant reminder that it's not real. And that's why he's so fierce about it with her. Why Ginny's defense of him is so uplifting to him. Ginny feeds the facade, while Hermione is chipping away at it.
Unfortunately, Harry's need to feel better about himself in in competition with Hermione's same need. Her intelligence has always been a boon to Harry. He's been coming to her and mostly listening and valuing her opinions and arguments until this year. Hermione's struggling to get him to listen to her about the book and Malfoy. She's taking it as a personal offense, while he's struggling to maintain an image he thinks is important and necessary for his own confidence. Look at this scene in HPB (US pg. 538):

Why is Harry stung by Hermione's statement? I think it's because he feels she doesn't think much of him (his own insecurity).

Excellent observations, brown. I just wanted to add that it is interesting that despite all the competition and tension between H/Hr, both react the same way when it is even suggested they do not totally admire or care about each other: stung, as in the very suggestion is painful.

It's also of interest that this is a slight variation of the "ugly" remark in Ootp, but in this case Hermione is more emotionally tied since it appears that she truly does doubt Harry's estimation of her intellect, something she feels very strongly about. And Harry responds in the same ferocity because of his dependence on Hermione's intellect and thoughts.

They're on opposite sides, but this is still comes down to two people who think the world of each other and neither can bear the thought of the other not holding them in the highest regard.

There could be another interpretation of this reaction by Harry.

I always thought it stung Harry because he has always been one to sing high praises for Hermione and her intelligence, especially at the beginning of HBP where he mentions how brillant Hermione is to Slughorn. He knows, and I think everyone knows, that Hermione has been consistently one of the top students ever since their first year at Hogwarts.

So when she personally says that to him, I think he would have been stung because he has shown already that he acknowledges Hermione's intelligence, thus the intelligence of girls, and also because of the fact Hermione should have known by now (think of her reaction when Harry told her about what he said to Slughorn in their Amortentia lesson). Its like hes been giving out compliments for ages but Hermione hasn't acknowledged it (even though in actual fact she has - where has Hermione's memory gone to?).

I never got the impression that Harry feels that Hermione doesn't think much of him (intelligently? as a person?). If she didn't, she would IMO be a lot less around Harry and be out with Ron or some other guy.

You know I got the feeling that Harry was stung because he 'assumed' Hermione would have understood his thoughts about her. The way he tells her about being friends for 6 years, it's like to Harry it should be 'obvious' (where do we hear that a lot?) and when Herm questions him or questions his thoughts he takes it a bit personal.

Did that make sense?

im Nobody

I agree with you, Nobody. It's like Harry and Hermione have been friends for so long that Harry is shocked that she would even doubt Harry's opinion of her intelligence.

I have a "moment" I would like to share, but it originates in OOTP. However, for the sake of contrast, I think it's worth mentioning. In OOTP when Harry sees Hermione struck down, he can't think--all there is is a whine of panic keeping him from thinking properly. It takes Neville intervening before Harry is able to come back to reality, and even then he's still shaken.

Contrast that with Ron's poisoning scene in HBP. When Ron is poisoned, Harry is able to leap into action to save his friend's life. It is Slughorn who is shocked in this scene. As horrible as Ron's poisoning is, it does not rob Harry of the ability to think and act. Hermione's near death experience does.

If something ever happened to Hermione, I seriously fear for Harry's sanity. I do believe that because of HBP, the Herons will have a hard time convincing me at least that Ron takes precedence over Hermione as Harry's friend.

You are so right, Miss Harmony! Was that all a big red herring? Just to show us what good friends they are. Well, why didn't Harry have such a reaction to other "good friend" Ron's nearly dying? That to me was an anvil. Scary how Herons and Chocos see it as no big deal. Is it really no big deal to them, or does it scare them to admit that Harry has really deep feelings for Hermione?
And after that experience of nearly losing Hermione, suddenly this year, Harry feels compelled to see if she's all right. He goes running after her when she's upset. Hermione's NDE seems to have shaken Harry into appreciating her more. If JKR just wants them as friends and only just friends, (and their friendship was working just fine before) why didn't she keep them the same? Why evolve Harry's friendship feelings for Hermione to encompass compassion like he's never shown her before? Isn't that another anvil. It certainly is to me.
We have the completely empty relationship of H/G which has Herons and Chocos running around saying it's "love", but the relationship between Harry and Hermione is and can only be friendship even though it has the elements of "love" except for the passion.
We've seen six (SIX!) books of Harry and Hermione's friendship. It has steadily increased in importance. Harry went from learning and leaning on Ron, to ever increasing his trust and dependence on Hermione. It's her words that ring through his mind, it's her plans that he follows, it's her knowledge that gets him through, it's her praises he sings (I can think of no time that Harry has praised Ron to anyone) and it's her near death that stops him cold.

Bingo. Of course to the Herons and Chocos, this just shows what great friends Harry and Hermione are. It couldn't possibly mean that Harry's feelings for Hermione are more than just friendship. The contrast between Ron's NDE and Hermione's is striking. Of course Hermione doesn't know how Harry reacted to her NDE -- at least I'm pretty sure she doesn't, unless Neville told her -- and Harry himself has never told her. I still think that's significant in terms of Hermione's actions during HBP.

When book 7 is published, we'll find out what was and wasn't a red herring. I'm hoping that the difference in Harry's reactions between Ron's NDE and Hermione's is as meaningful as we believe it to be.

Again I'm going to toss something out from the essay I'm tinkering with (yes 1 day I'll get off my buttox and write the thing up completely) just to advance what brown brought up about the HandH friendship. It's sorta long but it ties back into browns post.
N
ot fully detailed cause that would just be wrong to inflict on you good people right now.

In the first book Harry and Ron are best friends, its instant. 2 lonely young boys, both afraid of whats coming, both with quite a lot in common (to much to list here, in the essay tho..oh that essay, the bane of my existance till it gets done) one who actively sought the other out (if you think Ron just so happend to 'end up there' then you need to go back and try again). They become inseperable all thru the year,. Hermione joins their little club after the troll (again if you think Hermione only came back to the boys on the train that second time just because your nuts, once she knew who Harry was, that was it. It's NOT Ron who she was interested in but the 'hero' from the books she'd read. Why else would she be after Harry for getting into trouble without being friends? He was a legend and legends didnt do this stuff)

The 3 of them grew as friends, at the end of the 1st book Ron and Harry were best friends with Hermione bringing up the rear.

Book 2 and we find out that Hermione and Rons letters arent getting thru to Harry, via Dobby. Nothing big really, but it leads to one thing. Hermione and Ron talk more, they learn more about the other than either do about Harry. (Prime example: when Roon states he's afraid of spiders, and Hermione is surprised because "I didn't know that!" They've talked (thru the letteres) and grew a bond. Harry, what with quidditch and all the crap he went thru didnt spend tons of time with them or rather not as much as they spent without him. Again, JK put this in the books, you just have to look at it. By the end of the book its still Harry & Ron BEST friends but Ron and Hermione are closer than the H's are to each other.

Book 3 and, again, Harry's life comes back to haunt him. Harry's under protection from the MoM, he spends time alone away from his friends. But all 3 spend a little time at the Burrow. Again what with Quidditch and NO Hogsmeade trips allowed Harry gets left out of things. Harry's even more restricted in 3 than he was in 2. But in this book we see the FIRST moments whe nHarry and Hermione 'think' alike, they instantly pick up on things without words. Yes in 2 Hermione figured out the pipes were how the 'monster' was getting around based on Harry's words, but in 3 we actually get to 'see' them look at each other and 'know'. Because they got to spend more time with each other, not a lot but more than in the past. They work as a team for the first time, just them without Ron (actual 'action' not just the mental aspects), when they save Bucky and Sirius. The bonds are stronger, but again at the end of the book Harry and Ron are still BEST friends (Harry did side with Ron during the arguments, even tho he tried to help them make up, he still chose Ron) with Ron and Hermione closer but Harry and Hermione have strengthened based on their working as a unit in this book And Ron and Hermione, in my opinion took a bit of a hit as they never fully worked out their differences in this book (or ever)


book 4- The biggie, the one that evens the playing field. Ronand Harr yfight, and Hermione stays with Harry. Yes they're firiends but up till this book Harry wasnt with Ron and Hermione didnt choose Ron over Harry. We see it at the QWC, we see it during the Dark Mark part where Harry is who Hermione is worring about. So Harr yand Hermione spend a lot of time together, Harry isnt super happy and really doesnt appreciate the fact that Hermione is going out of her way to help him, at first, not until Mad Eye points out what he needs to do to get past the dragons and Harry knows he needs Hermione. First time Harry actively admits he needs Herm. They've bonded a little more, no quidditch to take up most of Harry's free time. Harry and Ron patch things up in a haphazard way ( they didnt clear the air any better than Ron and Herm, just used a fan to push the smog out of the way)
Hermione and Ron help Harry after that all thru the book, the Trio together fully since the 1st book in getting the PS/SS. But we now see Harry leaning more on Hermione, not just her knowledge but just her support, where Ron use to be the one he relied on more now it's Hermione and Ron. It's changed. The H's function on a bit of a higher level than either do with Ron, this book really brought that out bluntly. So at the end its Harry Ron and Hermione as EQUALS for the first time.

Book 5 the turning point - In this one Harry and Hermione just move beyond Ron, right from the beginning when Harry cares less about Hermiones cuts from Hedwig than Rons to the way Harry has trouble seeign disappoinment in Hermione over the things he does. Hermione is the 'ONLY' one to calm him down completely and make him think. Yes Ron told Harr yhe shouldnt be jumping down their throats but he makes sure that Harry knows that he's just passing the message on from Hermione. The Chocolaste scene? even Harry doesnt know wh yhe calmed down, the chocolate or just taling to someone (that'll come back up at the end with Luna, so I'm going with just talking about things) All thru this book on nearly every level Harry and Hermione instinctivly know each other, WHY? Beause they've moed into another region of friendship beyond Ron, the actually dont need Ron several tiems thruout this book, Ron's the one playing quidditch now, Harry and Hermione are spending more free time together, the roles have switched now. Harry's instinct to protect Hermione kicks in to high gear in this book, time after time. Scene after scene. Harry protects Hermione phsyically (this changes in 6 as I'll tell) when she needs it. People like to bring up that Harry stepped in front of Ginny when she was threatened in the DoM, well yes thats true, but go back and read it again, He moves over to step in front of her, but whose foot does he step on behind him? Hermione. He was already in front of her. Could it just have been a co-inki-###### that she was behind him when thet stopped? Sure, but I believe he was just continuing what he had been doing all thru the book, protecting Hermione. So they fight the bad guys, Sirius dies, Hermione nearly does as well (Sirius' death stopping Harry from activly thinking about what had happened to Hermione, blocking out his thoughts of her with thoughts of losing Sirius). At the end, after everything Hermione did for Harry emotionally (the DA, saving him from himself, tricking Umbitch, etc..)Harry repayed it with his pshyical protection of Hermione. At the end, Harry and Hermione are BEST friends, for the first time they've moved beyond Ron in importance in the others life. The actions toward each other show it. That why the seperations thru out the book of them and Ron. to show that importance for each other shifting.

Book 6- YAA I'm here (just imagine if I was doing the essay with all the quotes and page numbers and asides and all that..a book I tells ya)Here we see the relationships and all the hell they hath wrought,. Harry notices ginny for whatever reasons, she takes a more important part in his life than the moreor less friendly strangers they've been for 5 years. Now whether this is do to potions or Jedi mind tricks or Riddle screwing with Harrry's 'chest creature' again (yea just too much like book 5 for my taste, has to be more to it than just lust or emotional growth otherwise why compare it to the feelings he got from Voldy?) When Ron and Hermione start mentally bashing each other, Harr ygoes to Hermione, not Ron. The script is flipped from book 3, Hermione 'NEEDS' him now. And Harry does his job, he's there for the emotional support, for the firt time he's lifting her up with kindness, with his mear presence. Hermione, for the first time gets to hear compliments from Harry (I dont count the 'I dont think your ugly' as a pure compliment. Harry meant it that way but it was in an offhand way) via the words he told Slug. Hermione is..well..stunned. She actually gets to hear words of praise from Harry. We know the way he thinks of her. His thoughtsturn to her all the time, but until that moment she never gets to hear what we read. That was a really wonderful part. JK builtthat scene and the other emotional support scnes between the two beautifully. We see that Herm and Ron still dont connect on any level beyond what they always have, we have a few hints here and there that it's better, the end at the funeral was a moment where i actualyl cheered Ron in the way he handled himself. HE comforted Hermione for the first time. But one moment to a whole book for Harry...ehh doesnt really equal out in my way of counting.

By the end of book 6 the friendship between Harry and Hermione is at it's peak, it can't go any further unles they get int oa relationship. We saw Ron and Harry fall away from each other in 5, why Hermione became the bestfriend, Ron and Harry peaked in 4. Only Harry cant date Ron (unless JK wants to go that way, which I'd wager she wont) but Hermione and Harry stuill another level to go. Based on what I've seen it's possible. Yes Ron and Herm could g oto that next level as well, but then that would only put them back to where they were in the 2-3 books, closer friends than Hermione is with Harry. As we've seen Hermione lets nothing and no one take a higher place than Harry.

JK will have to really make some interesting choices to go OBHWF to counter 6 books of slow build up between H & H.

im Nobody

You're right. I think this avoidance of Hermione's NDE in HBP is deliberate, because it will cause Harry to confess something to Hermione in Book 7. I'm waiting for it just as you are!

Okay everyone, ready for another moment? I just noticed this in passing the other day:



Bolding mine. Now, to me a roguish grin implies a teasing, "I-know-something-you-don't-know" kind of a look. My question is, why would the Fat Lady be giving Harry and Hermione a roguish grin after they'd just been off alone together?? They must have had a wonderful, teasing time discussing Filch and Madam Pince, because the Fat Lady teases them as they arrive back at the common room. Should we then add the Fat Lady to our list of characters who suspect H/Hr?

Another reason I love this moment is because it reminds me so much of shipping debates. Harmonians are known for pressing the point that Harry and Hermione are secretly in love with each other, and the Herons and Chocolateers argue the point. Could JKR be having fun here with the shipping debates?

I think JKR is a Harmonian at heart. If she weren't, why would she make sure that Harry and Hermione have plenty of alone time together throughout HBP, often times because of Ron/Lavender and Ginny/Dean? It makes my inner Pumpkin Pie lover cackle with glee.

ETA: Nobody, I love your essay! Nice work!

Nobody, love your essay. Really made my day. Good Job!

Miss Harmony, I love the scene that you mention too. It also shows that Harry and Hermione can have a light, happy, funny conversation too. We also get to hear Hermione laugh out loud like that which is rare.

All good observations--but has JKR ever said she uses the subconscience of her characters--has Harry's subconscious been emphasized?

His feelings about Cho came out during his OoTP Christmas dream but that's all I can think of...

I would say that the "monster in Harry's chest" is somewhat of a subconscious phenomenon, except when it bursts on the scene in the corridor, after the final Quidditch match, and in the hospital wing. For the most part in HBP, Harry's attraction to Ginny manifests itself in his subconscious mind, "in the twilight hours..." (I think JKR makes a point of saying something like this somewhere in HBP).

IMO, Harry's attraction to Hermione is also very subconscious, he just doesn't realise what it means yet. Think of all the times Harry is reminded of Hermione or thinks about Hermione. The attraction, and, IMO, true love, just hasn't "burst on the scene" yet like Harry's "chest monster."

On a side note, if you were JKR, how would you write the feeling of growing attraction? She can't go all out on the lust factor because she still has some younger readers, not to mention parents of those readers, reading her books. She wants to make it humorous but she also doesn't want to be sued by angry parents insisting she's supposed to be writing a "children's book." If we look at JKR's "chest monster" metaphor in this light, I think it fits perfectly.

Great job Nobody. Could I just add to your theory a bit? I'm suggesting that things between H/Hr began even earlier than you state. Maybe not consciously, but deeper, so that Harry continues to (on the surface) rely on Ron.
The first scene comes from COS US pg. 52

Tell me Harry's not proud of Hemrione right then and there for getting the better of Malfoy.

Then there's this scene in COS US pg (bolding mine).

Not only are they thinking along the same lines, but they are playing off each other's thoughts aloud. Harry starts and Hermione finishes the thought. Harry is convinced there's more to the diary, as is Hermione, but Ron is completely oblivious and not getting it (that is not a Ron bash, just a statement of fact). Harry worked with Hermione to retrieve the ingredients from Snape for polyjuice. She was willing to risk serious trouble here for Harry's sake. It's her plan to use the polyjuice and she lays it all out, from getting the robes from the laundry, to coming up and brewing a sleeping draught for Crabbe and Goyle, Ron is very much against it and thinks many things are going to go wrong. Harry's nervous about it too, but he's still the driving force to follow.
It's also Harry who wrestles Milicent Bulstrode off of Hermione after they duel.
It's also in this book that Harry is first (that I can recall) upset about the R/Hr being together without him. COS US pg. 182

Okay, I'm not saying this is a romantic jealous reaction, but he doesn't like them being off together without him. Harry was initially upset because they weren't there to see about his arm. When he next sees them, Hermione immediately asks him how his arm is (nothing from Ron). Harry also realizes that it was important that they continue the polyjuice and are together for his sake.
And last, but not least. when in book 5 we get to see Harry's memories through Occlumency, one of his thoughts is about Hermione being polyjuiced into a cat. Hmmmmm.......! Occlumency (prounounced A-Clue-Men-See) and Hermione in the same sequence. Hmmmm.
So I would just like to add that Harry began to depend on Hermione and think alike with Hermione in this book, but being the boy that he still is, his greater feelings still lie with his male buddy.

Be my guest brown add away. This isn't the final essay, just a VERY rough outline of one part of it. Hence the HUGE amount of typos in it. I just put it up to show that the friendship of the Trio is one of the big things we need to pay attention to and see how it's turned out/changed in 6 compared to 1. Thats the guideline, if you will, of the relationship, that closness and growing bond that H & H have had. From basic friends (or to be honest until the end of the 1st book, just a basic acceptence of Hermione) to being THE most important person in his life.

Everyone else Harry has depended on has 'left'. Lupin-only sporadic meetings with him (I'm a big pusher of Lupin being the father figure to Harry not anyone else. In 5 and 6 he's still mentioning things he's learned from Lupin). Sirius- Dead. Dumbledor - Dead. Hermione has endured and in each book taken a stronger and stronger position in his emotional, spiritual (yea I said it) and physical well being. Nobody comes close to her in any of these things; not his parents memories, not Sirius' memory, not Dumbledor, not Tom (which is something I'll get into in that cursed essay), the Weasleys. No one.

No female stacks up to Hermione. Cho and Ginny: pale imitations of each other and of Hermione. Not bad mouthing the girls, but it's true, they, neither one, can do for him what Hermione can. You can argue that they could if he'd let them or if they had more time with him or if... (fill in blank). But what we see is what we go by. Neither did or could do for him what Hermione has.

Sure Ginny, according to Harry, was 'his greatest source of comfort'. Ok Thats a good thing for Gin, a good way to start a relationship, a shame we didnt get to see any of it, but still in the end it's Hermione he turns to. (No mention of Ron here cause I'm just hitting the girls) no amount of comfort Gin gives equals the amount of support and trust and 'friendship' Hermione has given him. Yes Hermione is Harry's friend, his best friend as I hope I've proven with that bit of essay and Ginny doesnt get to spend as much time with him as Herm does, but still Gin's the, supposed, love of his life. She should be the one that matters the most and frankly at the end I don't see that level or depth to what they have. JK will have to go a long way to show it 7, she'll also have to show an amazing amount of growth between Ron and Hermione to just EQUAL Harry and Hermione.

So, in book 6 we have a deepening (yea it deepened, a lot) relationship between Harry and Hermione. Let me just say something, just going by 6 alone and comparing the 2 girls importance in Harry's life, Ginny doesnt come close to what he had with Hermione. We SEE the bonds form with Hermione, we SEE the emotional connections they have on the page. No one else telling us about what went on, we SEE it. No kissing for Harry and Hermione but really none were needed to show the relationship grow in this book. Even with Harry's chest creature, even with his feelings of 'bliss' or whatever what we SAW between Harry and Ginny didnt equal the depth that we SAW with Harry and Hermione.

brown you had the book 6 being perfect essay right? I've been saying that without the interview book 6 was as close to a perfect book as I've seen for what it does. With the interview it's a horrible mess of inconsistancies and conflictions. The moments between Harry and Hermione in 6 are some of, if not the, strongest JK has written in the books. Even more than in 5, IMHO of course.

im Nobody

Excellent points, Nobody and Brown. I had a bit of a thought as well. The whole breakup scene with Ginny, aside from the Peter Parker/Mary Jane aspect of the situation, was the fact that it really wouldn't accomplish anything, anyway. He was breaking off the relationship so Ginny wouldn't be in danger, right? Wouldn't the fact that she was once his girlfriend still move her up to the top of the capture and torment list, whether they were still together or not? Oh well, I guess it's not really polite to point out plot holes.
Later

Nope, not a plot hole in my opinion. Just a hole in Harry and Ginny's reasoning. Harry can't keep Voldemort out of his mind at this point, that's why one more hug, kiss or handhold would not have made a difference. If she is as important as we're supposed to believe, it's not going to change her status on the hit list. Which is what Ginny should have been telling Harry if she really cared to stay in this relationship. Which is another way of JKR telling us that this was only a transitory relationship. Harry knows he wants something real. He thought it was Ginny (he shows more emotion than her at the breakup). Harry's still stuck in year 6 in the "fall madly in love" ideals of relationships. I mean what are his role models. His parents (what he saw) started with passion (disliking each other at first/turning into wanting each other). Molly/Arthur with their bickering as well. Harry understands "attraction". He just doesn't understand that love is also what you feel when you're with the girl who makes you feel whole, not so alone in the world, when they are with you, everything else seems bearable. Which is why I believe Harry (even though his monster was roaring for Ginny) cared so much for hurting Hermione through the year.
I think that as the trio search for the Horcruxes, Harry is going to see just how important Hermione is to him, more thoughts of being replaced as the most important person to her (which is my interpretation of his thoughts in Herbology), and a revelation by Ron that he's NOT interested in Hermione will help clear the way for H/Hr. For as long as Harry thinks that Ron wants Hermione, I really believe he would never admit/pursue any feelings he might have for her.
Ginny realizes that the dream was better than the reality (end of fangirl crushing). Now, Ginny will have a better opportunity to find a guy that suits her actual wants and needs.

*COUGHCOUGHMALFOYCOUGHCOUGH* Excuse me! Goodness... I definitely agree with this comment. She finds out in HBP that the chase was better than the catch. Which is good for us.

I think that people looked passed, even H/G shippers, the last couple chapters when Harry actually breaks it off with Ginny for her safety. They aren't dating anymore people. And Harry has said he's "not going back to Hogwarts even if it does re-open". So when - after they say good-bye to the Weasley's and go to Fleur's and Bill's wedding - would Harry make contact with her?

If you think about it, if the Trio plan to leave to find the Horcruxes together (no one else included), Hermione would be the only girl around to have an influence on Harry. Also, that would leave plenty of room for adventures (of which Ron will for some reason be discluded) for the pair. It would give them a chance to be uninterrupted and get closer, maybe even realize their feelings for one another. So in my opinion it's Hermione or death. . . I'd choose Hermione. But that's just me...

This had triggered some debate-ish and/or off-topics posts, which I've moved elsewhere. Click on the quote box's arrow to see them. - gal-texter, 2009

brown if you dont mind I'd like to build on something you mentioned in your post. Again bits from that (say along with me now) essay I'm tinkering with.

The adults and their relationships. Like was pointed out, Harry does see the way his parents were, the seemingly near hatred for each other at that time. He sees how Arthur and Molly bicker. He sees these adult relationships and simply doesnt see deeper. Truthfully, the best relationship that Harry's been around, in his entire life, is Vernon and Petunia. They don't fight with each other, no petty bickering beyond the normal little things. They respect each other and care and Love and everything a solid relationship needs to have.

Vernon, every single time he's thought Petunia was in trouble or danger, he's gotten in front of her to protect her. Vernon has caught her from falling, has tried to shelter her from danger, has went out of his way to be for all intents and purposes a VERY loving husband, provider and father (questionable as his parenting skills may be). He's (Harry) been around, up until Bill/Fleur the most solid, caring, heartfelt and loving couple in the entire book series. Add in Narcissa and Lucius as well, 'sissy loves Lucius, as you can tell by her attitude toward Harry over what happened in 5. She loves Draco with all her heart, up to the level of Lily for Harry in her being willing to do everything in her power to protect him. The Lestranges who went to prison with each other and never lost that 'Love' they must have to face everything they have together. I'd add in the Longbottoms but not quite enough info since we've never seen them outside of Mungo's together, but we can assume they do due to the fact they both ended up 'destroyed' by the DE's.

I've always found it funny that the best views of 'LOVE' in the books have been from the people who are liked the least. To me thats what clouds Harry's judgement on Love.

By all means, someone point out WHO in the books had a stronger relationship, from the very beginning of the books, than the Dursleys. I dont think anyone can, because no one in the books have been shown to be, with possibly the Malfoy's being the closest. Harry's been around the best example of love you can have, for his entire life, and simply doesnt recognize it. His and Hermione's relationship is like the Dursleys, in no way shape or form is that a bad example to compare them too. Bickering in the Weasley's, a near hatred for a time in his own parents, denial in Remus/Tonks, etc...

JK's shown an intense and pure and wonderful example of Love with the Dursley's. She's shown a wonderful (from what we've seen) Love in the Malfoy's. Everything else is one of what he sees between Ron and Hermione. Thus his confusion, thus his not understanding what it is he has with Hermione. But because of that hatred (deserved and rightly so) Harry has for both families (Dursleys and Malfoys) he's blinded to the fact.

Just something I enjoy noticing. Even 'evil' can feel love, sometimes stronger than 'good'.

im Nobody

I totally adore you! you are soo right! Thanks too all of you really! you really made a great point I would choose Hermione too

Wonderful posts here! I just want to point out one small thing about Ginny. Does she even try to get closer to Harry? Not that we see. Even at the end, when JKR says that Harry, Hermione, Ron and Ginny were spending all of their time together, we still don't see Ginny involved in what I like to call "trio talks." Even when she has a chance to (when RAB is being talked about at the end), Ginny yawns and says she's off to bed. It's like she knows she's not included, or even doesn't find it that interesting.

JKR once said that her characters were hers and she could torture them any way she likes--and this is one example of authorial intent. If Ginny is supposedly growing in importance to Harry, shouldn't she want to stick around when the trio are solving a mystery? But no, Ginny's off to bed because IMO she just doesn't want to deal with it. Harry the Hero is her cup of tea, and when it gets down to the nitty-gritty, she bails.

Anyway she(ginny) can't get any closer to Harry, I mean it would really destroy the trio! It would be 4 of them...not 3
The reason why I think that would happen it's because she would be involved with the most important character, Harry. The only way to keep the trio standing without anyone getting in, it's that H/Hr happens and R/L or no ships.
That way they will stay together and no one but the best influence is going to influence him.

Miss Harmony I think that maybe Ginny does try to get closer to Harry, but not for anything that would benefit Harry or his well being considering the great task yet to come. I think she wants to be closer to him than say Hermione, but I agree she is not interested in the "trio" things as you pointed out. Nor is Harry interested in involving Ginny. IMO their time together was separate from Harry's real life. R and R before the war. Someone here posted that the chase was better than the catch. How true, we have all done that one before.
jbaker Your awesome. I have been a "lurker" for about 4 months and look for both yours and browns posts. I have said this before I do find all the posts here very interesting and fun to read. Many great minds working. I see what you mean instead of a change in Harry towards Hermione it is a realization.

yeah u're probably right... I guess Ginny tries...

I'm in a bit of a down mood right now because my mom, who has never read any of JKR's interviews or anything, just Books 1-6 one after another, thinks that Ginny is not obnoxious in Book 6 and that Harry genuinely likes her. At first she thought it was going to be Harry and Hermione, but now she believes in H/G!

I'm not giving up hope yet, but it sure is hard to be the only Harmonian in the household! I guess H/Hr isn't really that obvious in HBP.

First off, HAPPY NEW YEAR!

I've been trying to catch up with the discussions, and they've grown pretty interesting. Great analyses of the moments, too. I'd like to put in my two cents...Btw, as I mentioned before, I only began paying attention to ships after HBP. So, it came as a surprise to me. Anyway:

a)Ginny - I didn't pay much attention to her leaving during trio talks, but what crossed my mind when I read it is that she was playing the "ideal girl" here. She knows enough about what's going on (she was in OotP, right?), but she also knows her limits. This is her strength when it comes to winning Harry's heart. This also seemed to convey the "mature" Ginny the author was talking about. She knows the danger involved but she doesn't nag or worry to death about him. She seems to convey with this action that whatever Harry decides, she will support him. That is also why maybe she is his best source of comfort, because she just lets him be. To some readers, this is the ideal partner. And I was happy for Harry because it seemed like what he needed at that point in his life. Then, the break-up scene came about. Oh, it was portrayed as the supreme sacrifice - they would both give up their love for the greater good. This is the part where I said - bad literature. Spiderman ending? And now, some H/G supporters might look forward to a Spiderman 2 ending? Please. It was bad enough that H/G happened suddenly (despite the hints they say from books 1-5), but to have them play the martyrs and then to have them reconcile...again that's just bad literature. (sorry )


b.) Hermione in HBP - I think I can understand her being OOC here. Although, she was still her nagging, overachieving self. But, she was breaking rules, distracted, confused and lonely most of the time. And yes, maybe she was thinking of her feelings for Ron. Maybe, she cares for him. There have been obvious signs pointing to this (as they said). I was also thinking maybe, her insecurities are surfacing, thus that McLaggen to the party incident. I think this is good for Hermione because she also realizes that books do not have all the answers. She has to figure things out on her own. Upon re-reading I like that for once she let her feelings get the better of her. It made her more human, and less of a packet of information that JKR uses to inform readers about her magical world. It made her easier to reach for Harry, too. For once, Harry was more concerned for her than Ron. Hermione was never more in Harry's mind than in this book, I noticed. While, there is nothing shippy about that, as it is natural to think of your friend's reactions to certain key events. I just found it endearing and quite a testament to their friendship.

Things that stood out for me were when Harry in the Burrow for Christmas thinking of Hermione's reaction to what he learned about Malfoy. "This was pure imagination of course, as he wasn't able to talk to her." That was funny to me. I also noted Harry was almost always noticing her absence (yes, despite the fact that is was brought on by Ron and Lavander's antics). He was almost always wanting to catch up with her to talk about something or the other. (My friends tell me, that that is natural among friends) My reply - I.Know. Yet, it still puzzles me that Harry doesn't process his feelings for Hermione at all. It's as if that OotP scene at DoM was nothing. We've had him think of his friendship with Ron, his relationship with Sirius and Dumbledore. But, Hermione alone? My friends again said that it's because he doesn't care for her that much, and that he takes her for granted, and only admires her intellectually. They go as much as to point out that he doesn't see her romantically, so he doesn't think about her. (You can tell, they are R/Hr right? ) Yet, something still nags at my mind. I know Hermione can be annoying when she nags, but she only has Harry's best interests at heart. She is willing to do anything for him. Even in HBP, despite her "love" distraction, she still finds time to research for him. Also, when no one else can break through Harry's wall, she barges on and destroys it (OotP). When they argued in HBP, there was more tension there than when she and Ron would bicker. The intensity of H/Hr fights were scary. It could break a friendship, yet they both stayed. Why? Real-life friends have had more falling out than these two have. What keeps them this connected? How come neither of them has acknowledged how deep this friendship is? Even if they don't end up romantically....they have to admit, this friendship is something else.

Here's one of my favorite Harry/Hermione Moments in HBP, as well as a possible clue which I haven't seen discussed before.

I'm sure we all wanted to know more about what Slughorn's Amortentia smelled like to each of the trio, and why. There might be a subtle clue for Hermione's third thing, that caused her to stop talking, turn pink, and get embarrassed.

It's an assumption, but I think a reasonable one, that it would have to be a person, or something that pinpointed a particular person, to cause that kind of reaction. So like the prince in Cinderella, lets try a shoe on everyone's foot.

Immediately after she skidded to a halt listing what she smelled, which may have given her a new revelation, or not, Hermione finds out that Harry told Slughorn she's the best in their year. Her reaction for him was a radiant expression, and "Did you really ... Oh, Harry!", which is a favorite H/Hr moment right there, but there's more. Ron looked annoyed and piped up that he would have said the same thing, cuz it's true. Her reaction for him was to smile and shush him to hear Slughorn. Ron looked disgruntled.

Harry and Ron got different reactions. Could this be a clue to what her 3rd scent was?

If her 3rd scent indicated Harry, that would go well with a scenario that she just discovered she's attracted to Harry, and he thinks a lot of her, specifically he respects her intelligence, which is what she values. It would also fit with her not giving Ron as much of a reaction.

If her 3rd scent indicated Ron, I would expect her reaction to him would have been more than what it was. Even if she felt the need to get back to paying attention to Slughorn, she could have noticed he looked disgruntled, and put a hand on his arm or something like that.

And since we really don't know for sure what happened between Hr/Viktor, lets try him, too. Who knows, maybe her fresh parchment smell was for corresponding with him. I doubt it, but what if she's still romantically involved with Viktor long distance? If she was just enjoying compliments from Harry and Ron, wouldn't you think her reactions to them would have been more even?

I can't prove it, but I'm inclined to believe her 3rd scent indicated Harry. The shoe fits. And yes, I know that went nowhere in the rest of the book, but there are theories as to why that might be, and thank goodness for them!

my new fave hbp h/hr moment is in the first scene with the trio at the burrow when Ron enters and chatters away, and Hermione just sits on Harrys bed and stares at him and is so speechless that she only utters about 4 or 5 sentences in the entire scene. Then Harry finally calls her out, (wrongly) assuming it's all about Sirius, ('Something wrong Hermione?), which causes her to snap out of it and finally enter the conversation...' No, of course not! So, um, did Horace Slughorn seem like he'll be a good teacher? (flustered much Hermione?! LoL!!!)