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Dragoncateliz
Before I start...the essay's not great at first, but stick with it, IT GETS BETTER I PROMISE!
I Introduction

Martin Luther King Weekend…I’ve wanted to write this essay for quite awhile, so this seemed like a good time to do it! This is my first essay; where should I start? Either I’ve completely missed something or there’s something extremely weird going on in the Goblet of Fire (hopefully not the first, because then I’ll be writing this for nothing…not too good) But anyway…**prepares for dramatic pause**

“Come, Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear.”
And everyone looks completely non-pulsed…big deal, you’ve read that quote about 100 times right? Ok, this may be an odd question…BUT EXACTLY WHO WAS THIS NECESSAARY MURDER? This person…that NEEDED to be killed, before they could get to Harry at the end of book four. There’s another victim in the Goblet of Fire, whose death was either never discovered or completely glossed over.

What’s still weirder is that the line is reiterated a page later and still no one notices!

“One more murder…my faithful servant at Hogwarts…Harry Potter is mine.”

It’s done quickly; JK doesn’t want us to dwell on the fact that there’s someone missing.

There’s a murder so important being planned, that Voldemort is basing his entire plan around it. Obviously, taking control of the Dark Lord’s path to Harry Potter, the death occurred sometime during the fourth book, because Voldemort found Harry at the end of it (but we all know that **winks**) And you’re probably going, yes, yes, so many people died, what on earth am I talking about? I’m questioning who possibly was so important that they needed to be out of the way before Voldemort was reborn? For the mean time, let’s call this person X.

Obviously Wormtail was the one who was supposed to be murdering someone else…

“My Lord I must speak!” said Wormtail, panic rising in his voice now. “All through this journey I have gone over the plan in my head-My lord, Bertha Jorkins disappearance will not go unnoticed for long, and if we proceed, if I murder-”I’m drawing a blank? Murder? Who, what, where!!!? Dumbledore? But he’s sorta’…still alive…Snape? Bertha Jorkins’ cousin? Animal, vegetable or mineral? I could sit and ponder who it could’ve been for hours, but this essay isn’t the proper place for that…The point is to prove to you that there’s someone out there! I’m trying to understand that one quote that nobody ever notices!

Let me first list the people who died in the course of the Goblet of Fire

II Deaths

Bertha Jorkins:
We all know about her, tortured to form Voldemort’s plan of rebirth.

“I found you,” said Wormtail, and there was definitely a sulky edge to his voice now. “I was the one who found you, I brought you Bertha Jorkins.”
“That is true,” said the second man, sounding amused. “A stroke of brilliance that I would not have thought possible from you, Wormtail-though, if truth be told, you were not aware of how useful she would be when you caught her, were you?”
“I-I thought she might be useful, My Lord-”
“Liar,” said the second voice again, the cruel amusement more pronounced than ever. “However, I do not deny that her information was invaluable. Without it, I could never have formed our plan.”

But she died BEFORE Lord Voldemort talked about there being one more murder…so cross her off. Here, you have it in black and white, he needed her to FORM the plan, and it’s obvious she wasn’t the one death, our search for X continues.

Frank Byrce: Although Voldemort stated that there was one more murder that needed to take place; that had to be committed, he had absolutely no knowledge of Frank Byrce being outside of his room and that he’d be forced to kill him so that the old muggle didn’t go running to the townspeople.

“Nagini has interesting news, Wormtail,” it said.
“In-indeed my Lord?” said Wormtail.
“Indeed, yes,” said the voice. “According to Nagini, there is an old Muggle standing right outside this room, listening to every word we say.”
Frank didn’t have time to hide himself. There were footsteps, and then door of the room was flung open.
A short balding man with graying hair, a pointed nose, and small, watery eyes stood before Frank, a mixture of fear and alarm on his face.
Ok, first off note this reaction. Fear and alarm on Wormtail’s face. Let’s define those words.
Fear
a. A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger. (A muggle knowing of their plans?)
b. Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power. (Supreme power…old crippled man? Come on, Voldemort’s the supreme power if anything, not the reason. Cross off. )
c. A reason for dread or apprehension: (ugh…hello, u’ve got a criminal mastermind for a master and u’ve been discussing this “almighty” plan that’s going to make both you and your master more powerful than anyone’s ever imagined and this annoying little muggle hears it…RUN AWAY!!)
Alarm
1. A sudden fear caused by the realization of danger.
2. A warning of existing or approaching danger.
(Basically the same as before)
Fear in wondering exactly what the muggle heard and alarmed and anxious about what the muggle’ was going to do! This proves that, because Wormtail was so terrified at the prospect, and Voldemort, hence, really surprised, that it was entirely news to them that some old man was outside eavesdropping on them. The fact is…through the entire speech where Frank is listening, Voldemort is oblivious to his presence. Frank was unexpected. This is an additional murder to this right significant one…He wasn’t the one murder.

Barty Crouch Jr.: WRONG! Ok, he died, but we all, honest to God know that Voldemort wanted to keep him alive to make sure that he had someone loyal who would make sure he was properly redeemed. He was Voldemort’s most loyal servant, there’s no way in hell that his death was wanted by Voldemort.

“By that time my most faithful servant will have joined us…”

“I told you, Harry…I told you. If there’s one thing I hate more than any other, it’s a death eater who walked free! They turned their backs on my master when he needed them most!”

Loyalty…

“Tell me he told them, that I alone remained faithful…prepared to risk everything to deliver the one thing he wanted above all…you.”
“You didn’t…it-it can’t be you…”
“Who put your name in the Goblet of Fire under the name of a different school? I did. Who frightened off every person I thought might try to hurt you or prevent you from winning the tournament? I did. Who nudged Hagrid into showing you the dragons? I did!”

Yea…Voldemort defiantly wants him dead…yea right…should I even go on? We all know straight out, that he wasn’t this supreme murder….Mystery person X, where arth thou?

Barty Crouch Sr.: This is the most complicated part of my essay…the one possibility; the core…this death is the only one not written in stone…Voldemort needed someone to continue going to work at the ministry and to make sure that no one caught wind of anything starting to go awry in their world.

My father was placed under the imperius curse by my master. Now my father was the one imprisoned; controlled. My master forced him to go about his business as usual, to act as though nothing was wrong.”
This is the murder that could be the possibility, maybe they wanted to keep him around long enough, but wanted him gone before the action started up? Wormtail was watching him (Wormtail is supposed to kill someone) But there’s no motive!!!
“There were periods where he knew what was happening. My master decided it was no longer safe for my father to leave the house.”

Even if they didn’t want to kill him till’ the end, why not kill him the moment they started to get suspicious of him like they did with Frank?...it just doesn’t make sense…
We also can’t neglect the fact that it was his son who killed Barty Crouch (and Not Wormtail)!
“Both of us for instance, had very disappointing fathers…very disappointing indeed. Both of us suffered the indignity, Harry of being named after those fathers. And both of us had the pleasure…the very great pleasure…of killing our fathers to ensure the rise of the Dark Order!”
Although, he is dead, it doesn’t sound very much like they really wanted this murder to take place…it just happened…

“You are in luck Wormtail,” said a cold high-pitched voice from the depths of the chair in which the owl had landed. “You are very fortunate indeed. Your blunder has not ruined everything. He is dead.”

Wormtail is fortunate, because he won’t be fed to Nagini, not because he didn’t commit the murder he was supposed to.

Ok, it wasn’t imperative to kill Crouch until HE ESCAPED! That’s when it became so important, our essay’s main conversation was way before anything had happened, before Crouch ran off to Dumbledore, it was a last resort killing this guy. They wanted to keep him alive remember! They wanted to make everyone see that he was alright; it wasn’t until he went mad that they had to do something…something they’d never intended.

Voldemort wanted to keep Barty Crouch Sr. alive at least until he had been resurrected. Cross off again!

Cedric Diggory: This was an accident; Cedric never would’ve died had Harry and he not agreed to take the cup together.

“From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, “Kill the spare.”
A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: “Avada Kedavra!”


Voldemort couldn’t foresee Cedric getting the trophy, even if we were to believe by some odd reason that Voldemort wanted to kill Cedric Diggory, he would have no way of knowing that the tournament was going to select him or that Harry would take the cup with him. It was, however much it’s sad, it’s Harry’s fault that he’s dead.

“He wanted me to bring him back,” Harry muttered, it seemed important to explain this. “He wanted me to bring him back to his parents.”

Let’s see, have we run out of people? Just to be safe…

III Possible Attempted Deaths

Alastor Moody: Moody was to be kept alive at all costs.

“I kept him alive under the imperius curse. I wanted to be able to question him. To find out about his past, learn his habits so that I could fool even Dumbledore.”

“The imposter needed of course to keep the real Moody close by, so that he could continue making the potion. You see his hair…the imposter has been cutting it off all year.”

Barty Crouch needed to make the polyjuice potion with the daily addition of his prisoner’s hair. This was, by no circumstances, an intended murder.

Peter Pettigrew: erm, was he the murder?

“Ah Wormtail, you don’t want me to spoil the surprise? Your part will come at the very end, but I promise you, you will have the honor of being just as important as Bertha Jorkins.”


**Imagines Voldemort silently giving the kill signal** Sarcasm? I mean he does a second before say…

“I will allow you to perform an essential task for me, one that many of my followers would give their right hand to perform.” We all know how that went…

Likely maybe, one problem: he’s still ALIVE!

Wormtail, if he’s going to die, isn’t going to die UNTIL he’s given his blood for Voldemort…First off, don’t kid yourself into thinking Wormtail was supposed to murder Harry; we know full well, the Dark Lord wants to do it himself.

“You see, I think, how foolish I was to suppose that this boy could ever be stronger than me,” said Voldemort. “But I want there to be no mistake in anybody’s mind. Harry Potter escaped me by a lucky chance. And I am now going to prove my power by killing him, here and now in front of you all, and there will be no Dumbledore to help him, no mother to die for him.”

Before I go on…GREAT PART, really great part… Anyway…Wormtail was supposed to kill a different person! Voldemort needs his animagi abilities so that he can spy on people and get information. And don’t think maybe, Wormtail’s supposed to kill himself, I guess it’s possible, Voldemort shows no remorse killing his followers, but, yet HE’S ALIVE! Murder and suicide are different things.

Murder:

1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Suicide:
1. The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.
So the suicide theory…out, Wormtail’s killing someone else… the questions keep coming…You confused yet?


Igor Karkaroff: A likely theory, but not important enough to the Dark Lord for him to take action, and the flaw is that he’s still alive of course…

“And here we have six missing death eaters…three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return…he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever…he will be killed, of course.”

Ok, we know point blank, that Karkaroff is one of these two people. If he’s the cowardly one, then he’s without doubt going to pay, (likely, because he runs away) but he couldn’t be our essay’s death, because he’s going to end up paying way AFTER Voldemort’s brought back. Then, the one who’s left him forever (Snape’s my bet,) but if Igor is then he will be killed, of course. Still, he’ll be killed AFTER! Either way, Karkaroff isn’t our ultimate murder now is he?

“Karkaroff?” said Moody with an odd laugh. “Karkaroff fled tonight, when he felt the dark mark burn upon his arm. He betrayed too many faithful supporters of the Dark Lord to wish to meet them…but I doubt he will get far. The Dark Lord has ways of tracking his enemies.”

It looks like he’s out of the picture…sorta’ sad when you think about it…maybe we’ll see him again? Our sad search for X continues.

Albus Dumbledore: Don’t even bother asking…VOLDEMORT IS TERRIFIED OF HIM! He’s the ONLY person that Voldemort fears; Voldemort’s not going any where near him until after he’s got a body.

“But you’re different. Everyone knows that you’re the only one You-Know-Who, alright Voldemort was frightened of.”
"I fashioned myself a new name; a name I knew wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak, when I had become the greatest sorcerer in the world!"… “You're not," he said, his quiet voice full of hatred. "Not what?" snapped Riddle. "Not the greatest sorcerer in the world," said Harry, breathing fast. "Sorry to disappoint you and all that, but the greatest wizard in the world is Albus Dumbledore. Everyone says so. Even when you were strong, you didn't dare try and take over at Hogwarts. Dumbledore saw through you when you were at school and he still frightens you now, wherever you're hiding these days—The smile had gone from Riddle's face, to be replaced by a very ugly look. "Dumbledore's been driven out of this castle by the mere memory of me!" he hissed. "He's not as gone as you might think!"


Why would Voldemort ever send someone 10 times less powerful than he was to go after the most powerful wizard of the century?

“Peter Pettigrew? That little fat boy who was always tagging after them at Hogwarts?”
“Hero worshipped Black and Potter, Never quite in their league talent wise. I was always rather sharp with him; you imagine how much I regret that now…stupid boy…foolish boy…he was always helpless at dueling.”
Unless you go back to the Voldemort-wanting-Pettigrew-dead theory, so he’d send Wormtail just to force him to die, but I think we’ve agreed that Wormtail is too important. Dumbledore wasn’t supposed to die…we have no other X candidate…


IV Still More Questions

I don’t understand why questions like “do wizards drink coffee” and “how old is Professor Dumbledore?” are asked so frequently and why everyone’s pondering the identity of the Half-Blood Prince, when there’s so much more to question…

THERE’S BEEN COLD-BLOODED MURDER! And no one’s noticed…

I was getting desperate for someone else to see it and noticed that Galdriel Waters at least mentions it in her book, The Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter, but why is it not bolded, highlighted and printed 50 TIMES! EACH DEATH WAS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT, WHY IS THIS UNNOTICED?

Is this just another red-herring? But then I don’t know! Usually JK’s red herrings are reiterated 50 thousand times, Snape…evil dude…gunna’ steal the stone; what’d we have to do to prove that? Set his robes on fire, see him threatening Quirrel in the forest, roaming around in the library late at night…this isn’t mentioned enough to be a red herring!

While some of you may think it’s Bertha Jorkins’ cousin, they (The Ministry) got a few words in with her, she isn’t dead.

I read through the Order of The Phoenix, checked some time lines and a missing person in GoF was never once mentioned…eerie isn’t it?

V When?


I’m positive this murder didn’t take place during OoTP, we all read it, and we know Voldemort was reborn in number 4-- not book 5, in order for him to be revived, someone had to die…We need a more specific time? Professor Plum with the wrench in the conservatory…we know who, Wormtail…avada kedavra maybe, but we need a Mr. Body and a when and where!

This killing took place after the Quidditch World Cup…if we could only figure out who it was!

“Why wait until the World Cup is over?”
“Because fool, at this very moment wizards are pulling in from all over the world, and every meddler from the Ministry of Magic will be on duty, on the watch signs for unusual activity…They will be obsessed with security, lest the muggles notice anything. So we wait!”


VI Conclusion

“And there hasn’t been anything that looks like him yet, no funny deaths or anything.”
“That’s because there haven’t been any suspicious deaths yet,” said Sirius “Not as far as we know anyway.”


You now start to see the problem, as far as we know, DESPITE THE DEATHS AND ATTEMPTED DEATHS, there’s no important murder that would severely change the course of the books or make Harry Potter easier to come by. That’s why it isn’t so big a deal to fans, because JK is trying to push this death further into the shadows…The only conclusion I can come to is that there was another murder in the book that was previously un-released or that we’re not supposed to know about.

Am I the only one who’s incredibly frustrated here? Who’s X? My head’s killing me…I can’t figure it out…please respond I could go with some ideas…Thank you for reading! thumbup.gif


Mystic Knight
Hmm. I never noticed that before. Either I'm missing something, or this could be a point that will be brought up again later on in the books.
fishtankbabe
I can see this is really driving you crazy! I hope what I'm about to say isn't too much of a disappointment, but this is what I think it all means. Voldemort needed other people's (murdered) bodies to sort of re-animate himself, didn't he? (Sorry, it's been awhile since I read GoF.) I interpreted that line to mean that he needed a certain number of them to be able to get his own body back, and that ritual he did in the cemetary with Harry's blood and all that was the spell or potion or whatever he needed to attach his disembodied soul to his re-made human body. So I think when he said he only needed one more murder, it didn't matter who it was, he just needed that one more body, and then he would be able to complete his "list of ingredients" to get his physical body back.

If it were something really important to the plot of the series, it would have been brought up more than in passing. So anyway, that's my thought on the matter. What do you think?
spygirl
First of all, Dragoncateliz (can I just call you Dragon tongue.gif ) I think you present some interesting information in your essay, but I also believe you answered your own question.

I had pretty much come to the conclusion that Barty Crouch, Sr. was the other death - for several reasons. Regardless of when Voldemort made this comment to Wormtail, the plan for the Tri-wizard Tournament was already in place...probably long before the World Quidditch Cup. At least it would seem that this is the case.

Barty Crouch Jr. made the dark mark at the WQC --- he deliberately sent a message to the Death Eaters he felt abandoned the Dark Lord. This tells us that Bart Jr. had been planning this incident, along with his escape, for sometime. It might also mean that he managed to find a way to contact Voldemort. Possibly through Wormtail, or some kind of spell utilizing the dark mark tattooed on his own arm.

Barty Sr.'s decision to allow his son to go to the Quidditch cup wasn't made in haste. Winky tells us she had to work really hard to convince her master to allow his son to go. But, we also learn that Barty Jr. had long since learned how to resist the Imperious curse his father used on him, instead just pretending he was still 'controllable.'

This was all part of the plan.

As soon as Barty Jr. escaped the night of the WQC, he immediately sought out Voldemort and Wormtail. Remember, the plan to capture Harry during the Tri-Wizard Tournament was already in progress when Voldy and Wormtail first arrived in Little Hangleton. As a matter of fact, we hear Wormtail attempt to talk Voldemort out of using Harry --- suggesting that the Dark Lord has many enemies that would serve his purpose just fine.

Regardless, Barty's father was very important to the their plan. They needed access to all his information at the Ministry. While the Imperious Curse controlled him for a while, he was soon able to fight it off like his son. His escape was inevitable.

Either way, Barty Crouch Sr. was a dead man. After all was said and done, Voldemort couldn't leave him alive to be witness to his return. Even Dumbledore suggests this much regarding Harry's survival. Voldemort wanted no witnesses that he was back. So why would anyone think Voldemort would keep Crouch Sr. alive after his purpose was served? He wouldn't. Barty Sr. was facing a certain death sentence. The only question was when.

Just in case you haven't noticed, there's never been an Official statement regarding the death of Crouch Sr. Of course junior Bart admitted to Dumbledore that he murdered him, but as far as the Ministry is concerned, they're denying the whole Voldemort's returned conspiracy, including Crouch's death.


QUOTE
Then, the one who’s left him forever (Snape’s my bet,) but if Igor is then he will be killed, of course. Still, he’ll be killed AFTER! Either way, Karkaroff isn’t our ultimate murder now is he?



I know a lot of people assume this to be true about Snape. But I absolutely don't believe this to be the case. My reasons behind this are pretty detailed, but the upshot is this: Malfoy was one of the few DE Voldemort didn't humiliate at the Graveyard. It would appear that there's still some respect between the Dark Lord and Lucius. As we know, Lucius has maintained an excellent relationship with Snape and vice versa. I doubt this would be the case if Snape was considered a traitor to Voldemort and his fellow DE. It absolutely wouldn't be the case. I definitely believe Snape is a legitimate spy for Dumbledore. I believe he's sincere and on the side of good. However, part of what Snape is more than likely doing is presenting a much different picture to the Pure-Blood supremists. He's letting them all believe he's working as their spy. Thank goodness he's a master Occlumens or he would have been dead a long, long time ago.

Is there evidence to this in canon? Yes, indeed.

We know that Snape became employed at Hogwarts either just before or immediately following Voldemort's downfall. I believe this was part of Dumbledore's plan...a way to make it look like Snape was infiltrating Hogwarts as a spy for the Dark Lord. Lucius Malfoy's deep respect for Severis Snape seems to concur with this conclusion. Additionally, there have been no threats made against Snape's life that we know of, and we also know - as Harry pointed out in OotP - that Snape's job for the Order is to spy on Voldemort. I don't think Snape would be able to do this if Voldy believed he was a traitor. So, for all intent and purposes - Snape is still an active DE. I also believe Snape was at the graveyard with the rest of the DE in GoF. He would have to go, if for no other reason than to not blow his cover.

Karkaroff is definitely one of the DE Voldemort mentions. I think that goes without question. The second one is Barty Crouch, Jr - of course. The third one remains a mystery, however.


Spygirl
Dragoncateliz
Well before I start, I really wanna' thank everyone who read my ideas and especially thank spygirl for shining some light on my slightly obsessive essay biggrin.gif

I'm gunna' respond to everyone who posted something in return...cause I'm reeeallly happy that u guys did smile.gif

"I had pretty much come to the conclusion that Barty Crouch, Sr. was the other death - for several reasons. Regardless of when Voldemort made this comment to Wormtail, the plan for the Tri-wizard Tournament was already in place." by spygirl

Something I should've looked into before which is weird...

"Wormtail and I did it. We prepared the polyjuice potion before hand" If we go back to the chamber of secrets we know that the polyjuice potion takes a month to make...the quidditch world cup was:

"it was still a forthnight before he went back to school again." a forthnight is exactly three weeks...he said that before attending the quidditch world cup which was at least two or three days later, a little over 2 weeks to go...there are only two logical conclusions: that jr. crouch and wormtail were already working together on the potion or that wormtail worked on it at first by himself...either way...ur right, this thing was planned for quite awhile.

But, although Voldemort certainly planned this for awhile...do we know that barty jr. did? I don't think he anticipated getting a wand

"It happened there. in the top box. It was like waking from a deep sleep. I found myself in public, in the middle of a match, and I saw, in front of me, a wand sticking out of a boys pocket. I had not been allowed a wand since my return from azkaban. I stole it."

I don't think that he planned shooting the dark mark into the sky, it was an impulse that resulted from his fury of being imprisoned. Barty jr. had no way of knowing that lucius and all the other death eaters would levitate the muggles and that his father would leave the tent...(unless he's related to trelawney...possible 1eye.gif ) that part at least wasn't planned online2long.gif

"They were not enslaved as I was. They were free to seek him, but they did not. They were merly making a sport of muggles. The sound of their voices awoke me. My mind was clearer than it had been in years. I was angry, I had a wand. I wanted to attack them for their disloyalty to my master."

Barty jr. had his mind clearer than it had been in years, certainly meeting his master would've made it clearer?!? I think ur definitly right tho, barty sr. escaping was inevitable...but I think they wanted Wormtail to kill him...

"So why would anyone think Voldemort would keep Crouch Sr. alive after his purpose was served? He wouldn't. Barty Sr. was facing a certain death sentence. The only question was when. "

I agree with u 500%! I'm positive they were going to kill crouch sr., but it depends what his purpose was...what'd u guys think crouch sr. was there for? My opinion was to prove to the world that everything was still stable, voldemort wouldn't want anyone to suspect a thing,he'd keep crouch alive as long as possible, probably until after he'd been ressurected...and why kill him? If he could control him long enough, why wouldn't he save him for another Bode and force him to sneak into the department of mysteries...Crouch could've been valuable, he is after all a very powerful wizard,hence imperius curse and memory charms...I'm still not sure if he was the X murder, but something was definitly up with him...he's the most suspicious...

Hmmm...the one problem with the books is that nothing is elaborated on with detail...we don't know for sure that Barty Crouch Jr. even knew that his master would come for him...winky was fired on the spot the first time she messed up...surely he couldn't've have any communication with voldemort...i don't think at least? MAANNN, **once more falling back to perpetual state of confusion**

"this could be a point that will be brought up again later on in the books." thanks for saying that...I do sorta' think even if the murder was barty sr (which I'm not completly sure) that JK Rowling is purposely hiding something...when Harry wakes up from the dream...

"Voldemort and Wormtail had been talking about someone they had killed, though Harry could not remember the name...and they had been plotting to kill someone else...him"

The fact that they're murdering two people, harry and someone other than Harry is still glossed over (man, I should've added this stuff to the essay)

It woullld be really interesting if she brought it up again...or at least clarify it...

I got nervous about maybe overlooking some clue so I rushed out...before the snow storm that currently loooks so very pretty blush.gif and finally bought the new clues to hp: book 5, a part of my essay is mentioned in passing...they've noticed it too! thumbup.gif

it says that in the english version instead of "come wormtail, one more murder and our path to Harry Potter is clear." it reads as "one more obstacle and our path to Harry Potter is clear." Then "one more death...my faithful servant at hogwarts...Harry Potter is as good as mine" is replaced with..."one more curse...my faithful servant at hogwarts..." **They really ought to tell us this stuff before hand!!

I'm not sure if it means anything...but for the below quote...curse is singular, he only was murdering one person...someone who was in his way...not sure if it was a random person...

"Voldemort needed other people's (murdered) bodies to sort of re-animate himself, didn't he? (Sorry, it's been awhile since I read GoF.) I interpreted that line to mean that he needed a certain number of them to be able to get his own body back, and that ritual he did in the cemetary with Harry's blood and all that was the spell or potion or whatever he needed to attach his disembodied soul to his re-made human body. So I think when he said he only needed one more murder, it didn't matter who it was, he just needed that one more body, and then he would be able to complete his "list of ingredients" to get his physical body back."

Seems like a sound theory...but if that was the case....hmmm...there's nothing to really dispute it...but I don't think wormtail would be so nervous about murdering or cursing a random person, more likely a specific person...but ur theory's pretty good, it's a very logical one! my purple hat's bowed...u must be good at wizard chess? sorcerer.gif

Alright, cause I don't wanna' ignore the snape bit posted by spygirl...and cause I'm a major snape fan whistling.gif I also think something's more to snape than meets the eye...usually people think that snape's either spying for the dark lord..or he's trying to convince others back to our side...I'm not really sure about either, they're too simple, but it's obvious i think that snape's a good guy...snape still has a good relationship with the malfoys...it doesn't seem as strong tho in book 5...draco was more supportive of umbridge mad2.gif evil lady...there's defintly something going for snape...the malfoys are too friendly with snape for him "supporting dumbledore" They definitly don't think he still does...They're all gunnnna' be scary if they find out professor snape was the one who alerted everyone about harry in the department of mysteries innocent.gif so for all intensive purposes...snape is still an active death eater...and if ur right...about the 6 missing death eaters...three dead in service, one too cowardly to return, one who has left him forever and most faithful servant...if snape isn't one than we have a whole new mystery on our shoulders! **imagines arthur weasly as a deatheater** nah...I'm just being spontaneous... tongue.gif Once more, really thanks you three for responding, it means a lot to me!

Yes everyone's free to call me dragon blush.gif ...

Yours Truly,
Dragon

user posted imageuser posted image
Anazecria
Um... in regard to the missing death, part of the problem is you seem to be referring to the US edition of GoF. The UK Edition does not mention murder. See the Lexicon for further information.. In the UK editions, it says "curse" not "murder" and "obstacle removed" instead of "death". The UK version makes a lot more sense if you think of what they did to Moody. But although I am more inclined to trust the UK editions, neither the UK or US texts are entirely error free as they use different editors. Hence I am not certain which version is the one to trust in this instance, so the idea of a hidden death may still be valid. I seem to remember an explanation for this particular difference between the texts, but for the life of me I can't find it at the moment.

Nielle, kinda muddled, and annoyed when she can't find things. blushing.gif
spygirl
QUOTE (Dragoncateliz @ Jan 23 2005, 02:54 AM)
But, although Voldemort certainly planned this for awhile...do we know that barty jr. did? I don't think he anticipated getting a wand.


I believe so, at least based on the text.

GoF, US First Edition, Chapter 33, Page 655:
QUOTE
She [Berth Jorkins] told me of a faithful Death Eater who would be only too willing to help me, if I could only contact him.


Wormtail snatched Bertha while she was vacationing in Albania. According to Percy, she had been missing for over a month - which means that no one had heard from her since possibly mid-July.

As for the wand, it might have been one of those situation where hope meets opportunity. In this respect, the Dark Mark wasn't an all-together impulsive action. After all, the Death Eaters didn't engage in Muggles for Sport prior to Barty Jr taking Harry's wand.

QUOTE
I agree with u 500%! I'm positive they were going to kill crouch sr., but it depends what his purpose was...what'd u guys think crouch sr. was there for? My opinion was to prove to the world that everything was still stable, voldemort wouldn't want anyone to suspect a thing,he'd keep crouch alive as long as possible, probably until after he'd been ressurected...and why kill him? If he could control him long enough, why wouldn't he save him for another Bode and force him to sneak into the department of mysteries...Crouch could've been valuable, he is after all a very powerful wizard,hence imperius curse and memory charms...I'm still not sure if he was the X murder, but something was definitly up with him...he's the most suspicious...


Crouch Sr. was killed, or at least scheduled to be murdered, because he was a high risk commodity. Voldemort couldn't continue to control him under the Imperious Curse --- Barty Jr. tells us this much. This is why they had to take more drastic measures and keep him at home under the guise that he was ill. They couldn't do this forever, tho. It would draw just too much suspicion and, sooner or later, someone would want some answers.

As for rendering him 'insane' or at least incapacited like Bode, again, this draws too much suspicion. After all, who would do this to Barty Crouch, Sr.? It's immediately suspect and the whole idea is to have NO attention drawn to Voldemort or anything remotely 'dark.'

Btw, the only purpose Crouch Sr. served was to provide information reagarding the Tri-Wizard Tournament and possibly other ministry activity.

QUOTE
Hmmm...the one problem with the books is that nothing is elaborated on with detail...we don't know for sure that Barty Crouch Jr. even knew that his master would come for him


He probably didn't. Why would he? That doesn't mean, as Bertha states, he wouldn't be willing to help if his master contacted him. But, just as Bertha accidentally found out about Barty Jr., Wormtail could have easily gained entry into the home and spoke with junior while his father was at work.

QUOTE (fishtankbabe wrote on Jan 21 2005 @ 10:51 PM )
Voldemort needed other people's (murdered) bodies to sort of re-animate himself, didn't he? (Sorry, it's been awhile since I read GoF.) I interpreted that line to mean that he needed a certain number of them to be able to get his own body back, and that ritual he did in the cemetary with Harry's blood and all that was the spell or potion or whatever he needed to attach his disembodied soul to his re-made human body. So I think when he said he only needed one more murder, it didn't matter who it was, he just needed that one more body, and then he would be able to complete his "list of ingredients" to get his physical body back.


Actually, no - this isn't what was necessary for his rebirth. Voldemort only needed three powerful ingredients. Flesh from a servant; Bone from his father; and Blood from a Foe. You can find the quote in chapter 33, at the bottom of page 656. cool.gif

Spygirl


caina
QUOTE
There’s another victim in the Goblet of Fire, whose death was either never discovered or completely glossed over.


I think it's Ludo Bagman, but I didn't think about this! See my theory here.

Caina.
Dragoncateliz
WOW! I didn't even think of Bagman! I read your theory, it makes a lot of sense, Bagman's never really resolved, it either means that he's got some sort of secret and we'll definitly being seeing him again (imagine Harry running into him with a death eater's cloak in and being shocked out of his mind) or that you're right and he is dead, either way, wow... it's interesting and not at all cleared up!
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