I totally agree because if there's no H/Hr in the end I rather have the book end withthem dying AND destroying Voldermort.

I keep telling myself "harry and hermione forever" if you repeat it in your head it might come true right?


Mod Note: Edited to fix formatting - Mirtilla

AMEN!!!

if their love triangle must be ended by the death of harry or ron, I don't like it ... it's too tragedy ... I want harry survive from battle with voldemort (I hate this character sooo much) and marry hermione (in the epilogue) & ron dating luna after realize what he feels for hermione only a crush / puppy love (R/LL would make a good couple too)

totally agree with you ... luna introduced so late in the series, and suddenly she replace hermione as harry's 1# girl?! that's impossible to me personally (btw, I like luna a lot, she is funny)

agree agree agree so agree

I can understand this feeling LordIluvatar (and believe me, I have spent hours and hours and hours writing and reading essays and theories and lions and tigers and bears, oh my...

But H/Hr will happen (or at the very least, there will be a pay-off for the relationship JKR has built up). Don't listen to the naysayers. The truth is in the canon.

And if it doesn't (which it will, but if it doesn't ), then no harm done. I'll simply go away feeling a bit stunned that my intuition and analysis was wrong and then realise it's all pretend and move on.

Sienna
H/Hr is (almost) canon

I see your point and I've to say I definitely agree with you there.

Anyway if H/Hr is not going to happen, than I guess I will accpet it. amen.

Mirtilla/Michy

I agree Phoenixwriter. But then I find arguments for R/Hr and H/G that centre around an unwillingness to hurt Ron to be entirely faulty and ridiculous. As if an author would avoid conflict that she has perfectly set-up merely to avoid hurting the feelings of a fictional character or his fan base. I mean, how could anyone argue that H/Hr couldn’t happen because poor Ronnikins would be hurt… conflict… why would we want that? Oh… except of course that this is a STORY and story THRIVES on conflict. (Deep breath)

I've also heard arguments that go something like: why would JKR need to introduce conflict between the trio when she already has Voldemort. He's enough. And I think to myself that these people are obviously not creative writers.

I admit it is entirely possible that we have given JKR too much credit and that she may turn out to be a very standard author ultimately. If this is the case, then OBHWF is entirely possible (cheesy and horrid as it is). I prefer to think though that an author who has written five successive best sellers and is a master at surprise twists would have a bit more up her sleeve no matter what she seems to say in her interviews. If she is being entirely transparent and R/Hr really is a given, then I will merely go away thinking I could have written a better ending to her story than she has.

If H/Hr doesn't happen... but what am I talking about. Of course it will.

Sienna

EDIT: Just to correct the name of the quoted post ~Phoenixwriter

Personally, I'm not loosing faith in H/H happening... When asked about shipping, JKR usually doesn't give direct answers or she points R/Hr (talking about the tension being there...). Also, it's true that the movies seem more Ron/Hermione oriented but they aren't the books... I think that it's good for us. JKR likes to surprise her fans. Ron/Hermione is too obvious to be true in my opinion... Maybe I'm wrong but I think there is a big chance that Harry/Hermione will happen...

ITA Sienna. To me the idea that H/Hr shouldn't happen because it would hurt Ron, is just a ludicrous as saying that a pairing of R/Hr wouldn't bother Harry in the least bit. I hate when someone says that: it's as if Harry didn't give a about that happening. Of course he would! just to see how much, we only have to flip a few pages of the opening chapter in OooP, and then go to when he gets to 12G.

I think conflict is the gas that lights the fire of angts in the HP series, so I don't think there's going to be an "avoiding conflict" policy.

The producers, Kloves, Curaon, Columbus ... Well, who knows which way JKR's headed. One thing is for certain, the movies are NOT the books. The problem lies in JKR having put her stamp of approval on the movies.

Can she makes the parings believable or will she take the easy way out by contriving like she apparently loves to do? SuperGinny, anyone?

No, Potter, is not a romance but can't a book have more than one dimension to it? Look at HDM, it can be read on so many different levels including a fabulous love story, a critique on authoritarian religion, etc.,

That said, the biggest problem I have with HP is it's blackness and whiteness.

Sienna:

True, very true. Hopefully JKR is thinking that way too.

That's the positive way of looking at it; others *cough*Anthony Holden*cough* call HP a "predictable, clunkily written version of Billy Bunter on Broomsticks, marginally less testing than 'Neighbours' which is, at least, vaguely about real life".

WARNING: Stay away if you have a weak heart!

As for having five best sellers to her name, just because someone's books sell well, doesn't mean - well, just look at Blyton.

I couldn't agree more!

I agree - where did that come from? The sad thing is that when I have seen JKR commenting on SuperGinny, she seems to think that she prepared for that by the one line in CoS where Ron says that she "never shuts up normally". I'm sorry, but that does not erase three years (COS-GOF) of blushing, squeaking, stumbling and running away. Grrr...

Again - that being said - I hope that if she goes with R/Hr and H/G it will not be contrived as that, and that I will be able to accept them.

And now I am going to confess something and I ask of my lovely shipmates not to kill me... Sometimes, I just love the friendship that H/Hr share, and sometimes (not often!) I can see the beauty of having them not end up together, but still share this beautiful, close friendship. Of course I am always a HMS Pumpkin Pie shipmate first! (Please don't kill me....)
So, if JKR doesn't go H/Hr, I trust she will highlight this aspect of their relationship. And, you know, sometimes the books we remember and love the most do not have the fairytale ending, and the people destined to be do not end up together (which is why I was obsessed to the point of insanity with Gone with the Wind as a teenager.) Just like real life.

Just like real life, as well, fiction thrives off conflict and pain, as many people here have already pointed out. That's why I don't think either that JKR will go R/Hr out of some sort of misplaced pity for Ron. Remember, she drafted the rough sketches for the whole story, all seven books, in a number of days from an almost instantaneous idea, so the larger destinies of the main three characters are most certainly a part of that, and well, some sacrifices will always be made....

By whom, well, I will leave that to JKR.

Peace out and Go Sweden!

Pamina

In JKR's head maybe and maybe in those who identify with Ginny, but from the moment I heard Fred and George say that the last thing Ginny would do was to go to sleep, I knew that JKR was going to go into one of her contriving binges and start - and lo and behold - Ginny comes flying around with the red and blue underwear!

I wouldn't hold my breath on that if I were you!

I would tend to agree, but I don't think that derived writing in ambiguities with simplistic characters and a whole lot of pages plus a boatload of sales to boot, makes a book is all that great, either.

OOTP, I shall candidly admit, made me snore.

This attitude is naive, at best.

People certainly came in the hundreds to enjoy "Independence Day" - was that any good? Did it have any interesting characters? What about all those kids of the 80's who loved He-Man? There are so many other cases I can think of.

Let's be honest people will come and pay for rubbish as well! Sales are no indicator for artistic quality - look at the music industry!

Don't know if this is OT, but just to be safe.

I agree. Even with the comments that JK gave through Ron about Ginny speaking non-stop and such, perhaps for some it felt as if the sudden change was out of nowhere. But then again, the impressions we see from the chartacter is what Harry sees, and every time he saw Ginny, or there was a scene with Ginny present prior to OotP, he only saw the clumsy, blushing Ginny, and she never showed her non-stopping speaking side. Once the crush was over, is when Ginny starts behaiving what Ron would say is the normal for her. So in a way I can understand the sudden change, because we saw everything through Harry's perspective...

However, I felt that one of the reasons we had this change in Ginny was because of Fred and George. They are leaving Hogwarts, very likely we won't see them much in HBP, so what happens with the fun, laughter and everything they brought to the school? who will inherit that? Maybe Ginny's new look was to fill out that space, or at least that's a thought I've had on the back of my mind for quite some time, ever since that scene after Harry was cleared of charges, when Fred, George and Ginny were chanting "he got off!".

I could use this arguement to say that Harry is extraordinarily dumb! He conveniently does not notice anything!

Unfortunately, because we had never seen it, we didn't know what's normal for her, now do we? Did Rowling clue one on to the fact that Ginny could fly that well, collect boyfriends on the sly and be majorly rebellious ? Since when is the absence of a clue a clue?

I fully expected Ginny to behave normally in OOTP, but none of us had been clued on in to any of her capabilities. We knew that her mother was bossy, but where does it say, apart from OOTP, that she was doing things on the sly to rebel? I don't remember seeing Ginny the rebel in GOF or POA?

So I feel quite justified saying that it was a good old con and a horrible example of character development. Ginny Mark One does not match up with Ginny Mark Two because there are no clues connecting the two together. Sorry, but IMO, JKR isn't that good enough of an story-teller to pull of that type of off-screen development. If she was, she wouldn't have needed to filter everything through Hermione, Fred and George.

Ron's quote about Ginny not shutting up would only show me that Ginny was an empty vessel - after all, as the saying goes, an empty vessel does make the most noise, if we take what Ron said.

This offers no hope for Harry if not done convincingly and doesn't make Harry any more than a Jesus Christ (Neo, Frodo, tec.,) figure - sadly, much of that story has already been revetingly told in the New Testament.

It is thats why I doubt she ever would do that. People did it before but yet it did bring R/Hr as a ship but for sure not one what people gonna love. Those guys who actually read that serie because of Harry, I mean of course.

Having R/Hr and lone Harry would be another scenario which we already had. And if we like H/Hr did at some points in literature happen too. She can hardly bring something new though letting Hermione die and the reader in suspence who she all those years loved truely, having a Harry who loved her back yet never the guts to tell her that would be something new.

You're right about JKR making a few mistakes, but are you sure she's made as many as you think? Where does it say that Cho is now a fifth year? Don't you think Harry would have noticed her taking her OWLs along with the others? JKR also never said James was a seeker. That was a change the movies made, as the movies have changed lots of minor details.

So I won't stray from the topic at hand, I'll just say that I think the question is pointless. I don't think JKR is going to disappoint me. She will write H/Hr.

That's what I thought off, but nowhere is that hinted at in OOTP.

I don't recall reading that in the book.

Not when they're conveniently contrived - shows that she is taking bad short cuts IMO.

No, it's easy to kill Harry off and go R/Hr yet it will be difficult for her to make the whole story hopeful. OOTP only magnified JKR's huge limitations and believe me, they are glaring, IMO.

Hikaru and Nobody, these are very valid points, and probably along the lines of what happened. However, I have to agree with thereader that lack of clue is no clue.

When I studied literature at university, the point to discuss when discussing works in class was not what the author meant, or what the intentions were. Rather, the only thing we reasonably could discuss and the only thing that made sense to discuss is the effect that the text has on the reader. And so, while I agree that JKR probably had planned Ginny's character as boisterous from the beginning and that the reason we did not see this sooner was because of lack of space/Harry's thickness, the effect on me as a reader (and I think for many of us) is still that SuperGinny or Lil Red came out of nowhere from what I perceived to be a shy girl often shunted aside by her older brothers. As I as an avid reader buy into the story of these characters, I cannot sit and be annoyed only at JKR, rather the effect is that I get annoyed at Ginny, because her contrived personality feels fake. And thus my impression of her is that she is trying to fake her new self-confidence which does not make me like her more. Thus I don't like her at all, and don't like the prospect of her being coupled with the hero that I happen to like a lot.

Phoenixwriter I agree on the issues of JKR's mistakes. But where does it say in Ootp that Cho is a fifth year? She didn't seem to be studying for OWLs, so I assumed she was a sixth year (as she should be).

Hope all this made sense. I also just want to say that I find it unlikely that JKR will go with purely R/Hr or H/Hr. She has said in an interview that the trio will have to confront feelings that would naturally develop when you have a constellation of two boys and a girl. Which makes me think she is going for the dreaded love triangle of some sort (how sordid we can only guess), and I firmly believe that Ron's apparent crush (both as portrayed in canon and in the movie) is just a build up to that. I think it will get messy already in the 6th book, and personally I can't wait. But then, i am a shallow and drama oriented person.

Cheers to all shipmates and all the Swedish Snorkacks out there.

Pamina

'You really miss it, don't you?' said Cho.
He looked round and saw her watching him.
'Yeah,' sighed Harry. 'I do.'
'Remember the first time we played against each other, in the third year?' she asked him.


Cho is speaking about something both shared and being 3rd year seems as if they share that too. Logical she would ask 4th year not 3rd year.

Yep - and I'm still wondering how second year Dennis Creevey was at Hogsmeade? To her credit she is trying to be more honest about her mistakes. Something that she did not do in the past.

The triangle is definitely a possibility - it's a temptation almost too good to resist. Just one word of advice - don't expect anything too sordid, JKR won't deliver. If you want sordid then you'll have to look elsewhere *cough*HDM*cough* to recognize the "symbolism".

It's funny because these are not the kind of mistake that bother me at all, almost the contrary. You can find these kind of mistakes often in literature, writers are just human. The question is, are those details important and meaningful with respect to the ideas that lie in the books ? If they turn out to be, then yes, it's a major problem, otherwise, it only shows that the writer knows what are his priorities. If she had to show us Denis in Hogsmead for a purpose, I can understand that she forgot the fact that he was not authorized to go there, because that's so minor and meaningless in the overal plot.

I'm sure she does that, come on.

What you have to take in consideration is that, while fans can talk to each others about it, JKR is more or less all alone by herself about it. Sure there is the editor, but it's not so many eyes checking all details and possible imperfection as us, fans. And additionally, part of it is about future books, so in these case she's really only by herself.

So I think you're a bit hard on her here ... Especially if the mistakes you point will proove later that they were really only insignificant details. The only one I could see as important is the position of James as Quidditch player.

That's possible. That's really the problem of a serie that not only is unfinished, but takes a lot of time to be completed. But maybe she'll manage to surprise us all nevertheless, we'll see ...

Sometimes, I wish I did not become so concerned about this serie, and go back to how I felt about it before OotP, that is interested, but not thinking about it while we wait for the next book. That is the better way to enjoy it in my opinion. Because any surprise is bound to surprise you then.

Being fan make you more exigent but also more nitpicky, and in this case, we have a lot of time to be nitpicky between each book is released

That's quite a detail isn't it ? In GoF, it's written again that Cho is one year older, so I don't think JKR has forgoten it. It's rather a slight ambiguousity because Cho doesn't precise for who it was the third year, I suppose in JKR's mind, she associate third year to third book. So it's a mistake, but really minor one, in the way it's worded, and not one about how old is the character IMO.

Aha - sorry I didn't see dreamworld's question about Cho's age earlier, and thus asked the question again...

About the dialogue referred to by phoenixwriter above, I always assumed that she was referring to Harry's third year, and not their common third year (which was not). But maybe I am giving Cho too much credit for being able to focus on anything but herself for a few seconds...

Thanks anyway for the clarification...

Not really, she has the Lexicon which is a luxury that other authors don't have - she's even admitted it!

Yes you can, but it shows a degree of shoddiness on her part.

Then how come there are mistakes in the narrative? It shows that JKR and her editors don't check enough.

To play devil's advocate, perhaps she'll give us something so crappy that the end result won't even be worth it - I know that I'm certainly not encouraged by her last piece of drivel which I almost snored through.

I'm nitpicky about every book I read! Still, I understand that things can't be perfect but perfection is something that the best should strive for.

Nevertheless, it's shoddily worded, for an Englishwoman (whose first language is obviously English). That plain jane narrative does not give me any pleasure either - it's just like Blyton's! One more thing, talking about Blyton, she never ever made mistakes with the students years in her Mallory Towers series so I will not cut Rowling any slack!

No way is JKR the best out there!

Let it be PS/SS I would be all forgiveing, that for sure since she got not such a background like she got now. After at least CoS she got people, enough people that is who edit her work and yet there are failures? Its kind of funny if you think about it that they make such a huge thing if anything comes without JKR's approve into web yet aren't able to give their fans a correct book.
Its amazing and kind of shows whats all about there, money. As plain it sounds but its like that. A tousand people earn money with it there doesn't bother if there are failures hey people buy it even more in hope its get some rarety.

I wouldn't be that sure if she got already problems with GoF and OotP because she didn't, how did she say it? Yes, didn't follow her plan as much as she ought to be. Uhm, if I'm not sure I do reread the actuall published books.

By such a project, by a book that sales better than any other book I would be burned if there isn't a whole team a lot of people working on it to get it straight. Its not like that low prints where just 2000 exemplares are made. By a number of 1 Million for just one country (speaking of europe) then we can be sure its should be doublechecked and even trible checked.

And still we're spending less time on it like JKR I hope

Mistakes told us who you are and how you handle with it tells us a lot about a person. I don't say its a big deal in general but I do find that Denis being in Hogsmead or name Mark of all names Evans (why not Smith) and not even thinking on Lily Evans is truely amazing me. Someone ought to know that after all Lily is the reason why we are reading all that.
The point is that we all think way to high of JKR. Right, she can write and all but she is by all means not the best writer.
If she got enough nervs to write H/hr with all the triangle and conflicts than kuddos to her, if she even writes that one of Harry's best friends betray him I say wow I didn't thought she had it in her but if not then well I won't be all surprised though.

Lol, that's not what I was saying anyway.


As for comparing with HDM, I don't know. I like the story and the idea behind it, but I personally prefere JKR's style of writing. But to compare the story, I can't tell as long as HP is not finished.

The reason I prefere the way JKR writes is that she doesn't explain a lot, but rather shows. So it leave to the reader more work to do to interpret what's going on and what are the characters' emotions. In HDM you're often told about the inner motivations of the characters, which in some way leaves less room for the imagination. Still, the author himself is full of imagination, so don't take me wrong, that's not what I'm criticizing, but rather the fact that he's not too challenging on the reader's imagination.

And maybe that's why we are more likely to be deceived by HP, because maybe we've put too much of our own imagination in it, thinking that the author has a greater intent than she actually has. And that we'll really only know at the end ... It's a kind of bet. I am personally quite optimistic because I find it's going in the good direction.


And about Ginny, I wasn't chocked. I was not really surprised by the way it was shown, for me it fits OK for a character that is not too important. If Ginny was actually a real super Ginny, I would understand, but if you look closely, the rare times where Harry judge her abilities, he is critic of her, so in this regards, I find this quite realistic. At the DoM again, she is not shown at all like a super Ginny. She can play Quidditch ? What's the big deal in a family where four (now five) out of the six boys play too. JKR had to show us in a way or another the effect of Ginny losing her crush on Harry from his point of view, I thought the way she did it was quite OK.

Hum yes I hope too But what I meant is the thousands of fans' eyes, even if they don't spend so much time individually, that's a lot.

Obviously she was annoyed by that Evan mistake I still wonder if it was actually one or a change of plan by the way ... (which would be somehow a bigger mistake)

Well, I see that you're exigent. I am not on details that I considere just cosmetic, at least not as long as they are not too numerous.

Then, my friend, you are not really looking properly into HDM. You've done a surface read only and think you've found all.

No you're actually not given a motivational clue although you think you are. Start asking all sorts of complementary questions in every situation in HDM and you'll see how complex the situations actually are. It is if you know where and how deep to look. Asriel and Mrs. Coulter are way more complex three dimentional characters than, what one sees on the surface which one thinks is all, the more you peer, the more you interesting will find it.

Pullman is far more trickier because he comes off as this honest writer, pretending he's giving you a lot whereas he actually is not - I bet that you haven't even begun to peer into the subtext of HDM, give it a try and you'll really see how deep it actually is. I can write a 60+page essay each on Lord Asriel and Mrs. Coulter, and their motivations, because the subtext is there. In fact HDM has all kinds of subtext - LOL! Try doing that with Dumbledore and Lupin or Sirius Black! :

Erm - wrong again, you're not reading things closely enough, are you? Actually she gives you big clues into her character's feelings by telling you how they speak. Notice her excessive use of adverbs - angrily, brightly, cheerfully. No other author spoonfeeds you like JKR does except for Blyton. That's the result of a limitation in her narrative style. Most authors call her style shoddy.

No my friend, JKR writes ambiguously and dishonestly it seems that she is actually making you use your mind, but in actuality, she not giving you anything but an illusion. Trust me, I've looked at her very closely. She doesn't offer you any genuine clues, just ambiguities, vagueries and dishonesty that can be passed off for clues. And it's glaringly obvious if you know what to look for. As for her intent, the more I look at her, the less I get convinced of her abilities.

First get a grip on what I'm actually saying then come back to argue your point.

I'm not talking about her crush, please point out to me where it hints in book 1-4 that Ginny has Seeker like reflexes and can fly excellently? Has a real interest in Quidditch? Has a boyfriend she is secretly seeing? Is rebelling against her over protective mother? So, where did all this come from? That's where the dishonesty comes into the picture. Is an absence of a clue, a clue. Only idiots who do not analyse JKR's text closely enough but think they have will not find OOTP dishonest. JKR is a rank amateur, my friend.

Oh and one more thing, you do realise that HDM is an adventure thriller, not a mystery, like JKR's books 1-4 were?

You do realise that HP is a standard Evil/Good series which one's choices dictating what you become? HDM is not so simple - it's not about good versus evil..

I didn't say that characters in HDM were not complex and three dimensional. As for Dumbledore, Lupin and Sirius, maybe you didn't choose the best examples, altough there is certainly more in the two laters than meet the eyes.

Actually I was precisely speaking about that, by saying that she shows. Because these expressions are only what you see of these characters from the outside, and not from the inside.

Okay But what is a book if not an illusion ?

Ooh, but I think I got your point of view, I was only expressing mine

I don't see it like that because there wasn't any reason for JKR to show us that before, since Ginny's contribution was minor to the plot. It's a bit like telling me that every character that Harry will meet up to the end of the serie should have been presented right from the beginning. We had very little insight in Ginny's character, but the little we had was not contradictory with what we've got in OotP. I would understand your point of view if Ginny turn out to grow into a really important character, then it would be a bit strange to not have given us more insight before. But since she's still a relatively minor character, that's fine with me ...

Hum OK it looks like I've stroke a nerve so I won't insist further ...


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